Did she? I listened to the debate and she sounded mid for most of it. She spent more time attacking Trump than she did answering the questions she was asked.
Sure, she fared better than her predecessor, but “not shitting her pants” is a low bar. Trump was definitely worse than her, but again, if the bar is “don’t act butthurt when your opponent says your rallies are boring”, then congrats, I guess.
Reading comments from both sides, it seems that the left sees her not being geriatric as a win; and the right thinks that Trump was unjustly treated (targeted questions, live fact-checking, etc…), which is absurd considering that (a) they also asked Harris difficult questions (fracking and Israel, for example, which she did have a hard time answering), and (b) he was given free reign to talk out of order more times than I can count.
I think Harris “won” because Trump sucked. He sidestepped questions regarding an abortion ban (“I haven’t talked with JD about it” fucking lol) and Ukraine (“Do you want Ukraine to win the war?” “I want the war stopped” TWICE in a row, followed by “I know Putin really well” and a rant about the awesomeness of Victor Orban); he repeatedly told lies (post-birth abortion and pets-eating immigrants being the highlight) which were promptly caught by the live fact-checker, and even showed weakness and undecisiveness (“do you have a plan?” “I have concepts of a plan”).
But those are blunders that Trump committed, not something that Harris should take credit for. Nothing I heard screamed of “masterclass” debate, and I doubt that it will give her an edge in the upcoming elections or sway electors one way or the other. After all, the people who lived under four years of Trump’s presidency and watched January 6th unfold live, and still call themselves “undecided” are pretty much lying to themselves at this point.
For fuck’s sake, y’all should stop this “enlightened centrist” bullshit whenever someone is slightly critical of the leftist candidate.
Trump sucks. It’s incredible that he’s even allowed to be a candidate for presidency after the shit he’s done. He’s dangerous for the US and dangerous for the democracy of the entire world. If there’s some justice left in the US system, he will lose the elections and he will pay for his crimes.
Not liking Harris’ speech doesn’t make me an “enlightened centrist”. It just means that I don’t think her words were strong enough, or bold enough, to win her new voters, which should be the point of the presidential debate. I think she won because Trump’s ineptitude will bleed him some voters, but I’m not willing to credit that to Harris’ speech skills.
I’m not sure what debate you watched, because her performance was not only good in comparison to Biden or Trump, on an absolute scale I’d probably still give it at least a B+. Your comment came off as just shitting all over Harris and trying to bring her down to Trump’s level. Because that vibe was so strong, I didn’t even read the whole comment. Which is on you, not me.
I hate to agree but I don’t think you’re wrong, and accept the down votes in advance. She did some things well though, the trolling on rallies was actually her sneakiest trick to rattle him. I think she could’ve performed better but maybe she learned some lessons for a second debate.
Overall I think there was a double standard on mic control, whenever he wanted to talk they let him. He even got to speak during fact checks, what the fuck is that? On the flip side, they didn’t unmute her on rebuttals and he made a point to tell her to shut up if she spoke over him.
She spent more time attacking Trump than she did answering the questions she was asked.
But those are blunders that Trump committed, not something that Harris should take credit for.
I don’t think it’s generous to conclude that many of those blunders can in fact be credited to Harris deliberately striking his ego.
The debate actually infuriated me. There was no real content. Just two people screaming at each other thet the other one sucks.
Harris did better than trump because she didn’t lie, but she still didn’t say anything usefull. Mostly she didn’t even respond to his “arguments”, wich is sad, because they were that easy to respond to. Instead she continued to say what she learned by heart before the debate and what her team tokd her to say.
You miss that part about:
Working to make housing more affordable
$50k tax break for small businesses just starting out
Expanding the ACA to more people
Making pharmaceutical companies negotiate with the government to make more drugs more affordable
Making tax cuts permanent for the work class
BTW: continuing to say what you learned by heart before the debate and what your team told you to say is extremely important in a debate.
It’s called “staying on point”
Saying stuff off-the-cuff is not the purpose of a debate. It’s to tell people positions that you already hold. Harris did this on several occasions here. She stated actual policy goals as well as personal positions on different topics. Trump just yelled about all the typical things and never once stated an actual reason he should be president. The best we got from him was “I have concepts of a plan.”
I agree it was infuriating, but Harris did some some things of substance, even if anyone paying attention would have already known it.
Will this actually matter though? I somewhat doubt it, but I’ll wait to see. I’m hoping it does, but we may be well beyond reason as a society.
What we have learned from 10 years of Trump is that you lose when you respond to his arguments. His entire jig is to constantly shift the focus of the debate. He wants you to talk about Biden’s age and buttery males, instead of the economy. The best thing Harris could do (and she did) was to stay on topic.
Agreed. Respond to his policy points when he actually makes them. “Never would’ve happened if I was still President,” is not a policy point and it’s barely even a selling point. What question would that not work for? Inflation, illegal immigration, housing, school shootings, Ukraine, energy prices, climate change, and Israel: never would’ve happened. All because the Supreme Ruler Trump said… “Don’t do it!”
People not voting for Harris because of Gaza need to avoid watching the debate, otherwise they’ll change their minds. No matter how bad things are, they can get worse.
Why is it always ‘voters need to lower their standards’, and never ‘candidates need to be decent human beings’?
Because we have an unjust voting system, and petulantly refusing to vote can and will get people killed, and rights stripped from millions.
Why do you only frame the issue in terms of the voters’ responsibilities, and never in terms of the candidate’s responsibilities?
Why aren’t the politicians the ones who need to make hard choices? Why can’t they get wedged on the issues for once?
Because when you let perfect become the enemy of good, you end up with neither.
It’s literally named the Nirvana Fallacy and yet people double down on it like it’s the best decision they’ve ever made.
Who is the best alternative to Harris right now? Do I think she’s perfect? No. Do I think she’s the best alternative to Trump? Yes. We don’t have a super progressive candidate that stands a chance of winning in this race, we picked Biden in the primary, he stepped back and now we have Harris. The system sucks, but that’s what we have until voters put candidates in place to change the system.
That’s not the question.
The question should be what choice does Harris have, except to stop Israel?
If (as I strongly agree) trump is the worst human on the planet who will cause irreparable damage to :gestures wildly: fucking everything, then why doesn’t his opponent have the responsibility to do whatever the hell it takes, within the law to keep him out of power?
Especially as in this instance his opponent is currently sworn to be responsible for the ongoing welfare of the nation.
Imagine being so fucking intent on enabling genocide half a planet away that you’d rather let your own country fall into the hands of Camacho Harkonnen rather than attract progressive voters.
Because voters choose their own behavior but not the candidates’ positions.
This really can’t be the first time you’ve heard of changing the things you can and accepting things you can’t change.
Still not voting for genocide.
If things get worse, we’ll just have to do something other than vote won’t we?
“Still not voting for genocide”
You say as you side with Hamas who openly calls for the genocide of the Jewish race.
If you don’t want to vote for genocide you need to move to a different country, because that’s never gonna change
God this take is such a loser position. “Fine, I’ll just take my ball and play a different sport!”
Guess what dummy, you’re playing soccer with these Yahoos whether you like it or not so pick a fucking side and THEN ALSO DO MORE."
…burn the fucking barn down with the animals in it, ya dumb bystander…
Guess what dummy, you’re playing soccer with these Yahoos whether you like it
Yeah, actually a lot of us are very aware of the game and how it’s played. Are you? You know most of us aren’t in swing states, right? So what is my protest vote going to affect again? My vote already doesn’t matter in a presidential election. It’s literally never mattered as long as I’ve been a voting adult.
or not so pick a fucking side and THEN ALSO DO MORE."
Yeah I have picked a side. The anti-capitalist side. Which of these parties are anti -capitalist, again?
99% of y’all are calling out this user saying they’ll “do nothing and be smug” instead of voting, but y’all are just gonna vote blue and similarly be smug, do nothing, but continue to run defense for millionaires and one of the most powerful capitalist political parties in the world.
At least this user won’t be doing the latter.
What, are you gonna be on the front lines with your guns shooting? The overwhelming majority of people with this mindset have never held a firearm in their entire lives and have no idea what they’re even talking about. What are you even insinuating here? Is your end goal that we burn the entire country down because “wahhhhh both sides aren’t perfect”? Grow up, only children refuse to see greater good through compromise because they can’t see past not getting what they want. Single issue voters love to stick their head in the sand and pretend the one issue that they’re whinging about is the most important in the world.
Have fun standing on your “genocide” comment when you’re in a fascist dictatorship run by nazis. “but but but the genocide wah”
I’m insinuating that we can become ungovernable and force the government to capitulate to our demands. Mass protest, general strike, public disruptions, boycott, we have options to fight back.
Instead of just voting every couple years.
It is if you don’t vote for the two genocidal candidates. There are non genocidal choices, even if they’re just protest votes.
No hard feelings when I get the order to round up your kids to put into the camps after Führer Trump gives the signal, right? I’ll just be following orders, and don’t worry, work will set you free someday! I’m sure the dead Palestinians from our nuclear launch will thank you from the afterlife for sticking it to The Man.
Democracy exist
Half the presidents in my lifetime lost the popular vote.
Nope.
Trump fans don’t care.
Harris fans saw confirmation.
Disinterested voters didn’t watch.
Precisely. Harris is losing ground nationally and is losing ground in battleground states. Unless this debate significantly moves the needle, which I don’t think it will for the very elegant reasons you summed, current trend lines indicate Harris losing steam and Trump continuing to pick up voters. No amount of wishful thinking will change that.
I’ve been tracking polling all year and you can see the past few weeks of progress here:
https://lemmy.world/post/19253997
Harris is losing ground in AZ, GA, PA and MI. If that slide continues with no debate bump it’s going to be super hard to pull out a win.
WI moved to toss up. MI is on the verge of moving from Harris to toss up next week. PA and AZ have outright moved to the Trump category.
There’s time to reverse it… but man…
Yeah. The surprise nominee change and DNC bumps are ebbing and the debate will likely be a blip at best.
It’s like there’s an unceasing gravity to Trump’s numbers, like being choked by a boa constrictor. I think that’s largely a result of his polling numbers being much “harder” than Harris, i.e. the percent of each candidates numbers that will never change their mind for and reason whatsoever and will always and fully support their candidate no matter what is much higher for Trump than Harris.
Disinterested voters didn’t watch.
It was a highly entertaining debate. Plenty of folks who dislike them both showed up with big bowls of popcorn to root for injuries. And Trump was true to form, just stepping into rake after rake for the full 90 minutes.
…and a news media that desperately needs a horse race for clicks will continue to hold Harris to a higher standard than the orange Mr. Magoo.
A convicted rapist literally claimed that you’re allowed to murder babies - then we put them side by side and double check if Harris said something that was slightly exaggerated. What’s so weird about it?
Ajnt Ornj: “non white ‘illegal immigrants’ are literally coming to eat your pets and the democrats want to let them”
Media fact checker: "this may not be entirely true, as no evidence has been produced to support the claims, however we found a Twitter post that… "
Harris: “those polling numbers increased by 18%”
Media fact checker: “This is blatantly false. The number actually increased by 17.86%”
Idiots online: BOTH SIDES LIE THEY’RE EXACTLY THE SAME
Yep, had a conversation about it with a coworker who won’t be voting. His stance on roe v Wade (he brought it up) was that both sides have points but he didn’t understand what the decision was about as evidenced by him thinking that the government just shouldn’t have a say in medical decisions.
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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/sep/11/trump-harris-debate-analysis
