What does this even mean?
“Men lose their mind” = they start shouting and shitting on the floor in disbelief?
“Daughters aren’t as forgiving as their wives”: forgiving what exactly? Mistakes?
It’s like they think they’re saying something profound and agreeing with each other but saying nothing of value (as is natural on twitter).
I think it’s speaking about women who “allow” bad behavior.
Like, maybe the man’s mom used to do all his chores for him without asking, so he comes to expect it. His wife, who is not his mother, says he has to do his own laundry and maybe puts their foot down about the whole “weaponized incompetence” some men use. The man is surprised, because he didn’t expect his wife to be “less forgiving” than this mother, who just gave us and did it for him.
For daughters, sometimes daughters (or just children in general) , as an outside observer to the relationship, can tell that one parent is shit (in this case, the father). While the wife may go, “He didn’t meant it, he’s just tired,” the daughter may not be “as forgiving” and just say he is abusive.
However, I don’t think either of these are gender specific. Just depnsends on the dynamic at play.
Yes. I mean I’m a man and I had no trouble understanding the post but for some reason it is very hard for some people
Or, you know, kids haven’t got the same grasp of adult life that grown ups do.
I have a 23 year old daughter. She has a job, an education, is currently travelling the world and she’s still really very immature in many ways. I know there be will be people that age right now reading this and hating it and you know you’re really still very far away from really getting this but there is SO much in life that we have to learn to let go. SO many failures of our own and of others that we need to find a way to live with. It took me a long, long time to really get to the point where I was able to forgive the world for being a place where certain bad things had happened. That’s the thing that finally allowed me to keep looking for goodness, to struggle for hope instead of being angry with reality. You look deep into any maladjustment be it drug addiction, eating disorders, rage, pretty much any negative compulsion - deep down in there it’s this. It’s this inability to forgive the world for being a place where bad things can happen. Which is clearly a child-like response to not getting our way. Only now “getting our way”, like it’s not that you were refused a treat but rather you’re waching the bigger part of humanity suffer and realising you’re near powerless to do anything about it. Two things can be true. The world can be a bad place sometimes but it can also be good. If you can’t forgive it for its failings you’ll struggle to see the good side.
That’s why I said “sometimes” and not, “every child, everywhere, all the time.”
Your 23 year old may be really immature still, some kids are not. Depends on the kiddo. However, I don’t think forgiving abusive parents is a lesson that should be taught. You can hold someone accountable without hating the rest of the world. I can not forgive an abusive parent and still see the good side of things without being a doormat.
I’m right there with you. I’m utterly confused.
What is there to forgive? Is thore some inherent shittyness in men that needs overlooking on the part of women, or suppressing on the part of men?
Or is this just talking about how gender equality as improved with each generation, so as the same dudes age, the younger women in their lives are asking them to be more and more fair?
Absolutely, but those shouldn’t be overlooked by anyone, and forgiven only once someone has made the effort to unlearn that shit.
Is the “profound” message here really just that as younger women enter the lives of their aging husbands and then fathers, they tolerate less and less of the historical sexist shittyness, as they’ve grown up a generation later than the previous main female figure in their lives?
Scoffing when asked to change ones behaviour for the better is not a gendered charachter fault. No-one likes being informed that something they’ve been doing, and consider normal, is bad, actually.
And that’s not a reason not to improve. The opposite. It’s a reason to embrace self-improvement, and to learn to do ones best to skip the denial phase.
Something I think most people, of both genders, can be very good at if they want to be.
It’s worse than that. It’s a sexist assertion that all men model the worst of our gender while all women model the best of theirs, which aggrivatingly dismisses feminist progressive men and excusing sexist regressive women.
DomeWife is not the one teaching DomeBaby about bodily autonomy or feminism, though she does have plenty of examples of women being sexist to our manly kith and kin.
this comment is difficult to read because I can’t figure out if you’re sarcastic or not, it would make sense either way and I have no way of knowing
Why in earth would I compare the woman I’m blasting with my mother?! That’s kinda weird.
I hate that I have to raise a son in an environment that is becoming so hateful towards men just for existing. I saw a picture of a woman at a protest against a child molester and she had a sign that says “not all men but it’s ALWAYS a man” As someone who was molested by a woman when I was a kid, that shit is offensive and aggressive.
The down votes say it all. This shit is why its hard to get men onto the left.
This shit is why its hard to get men onto the left.
Exactly. You have one side that doesn’t give a shit about men’s issues and demonizes them for it and the other side that also doesn’t give a shit about men’s issues but gives the occasional lip service or pretends to listen on occasion.
Neither is a good choice, but one is not openly hostile, and that makes it easy to fall that way.
I went to college in the 80’s. I had a history teacher explain to me how the Civil War and Jim Crow were not about gaining economic advantage from subjugation of free labor, but rather white men keeping white women in their place by demonizing black men.
I needed an A, and I got one. I told her what she wanted to hear. Not proud of that, but not ashamed either.
That crap was allowed to fester because it was only a few crazy people. Then it grew enough to spawn the likes of Trump.
I recommend this excellent book, “Jesus and John Wayne” by Kristin Du Mez who brings receipts for the argument that disaffected people were looking for a Trump to show up. (She is an evangelical who is not a fan of autocracy)
All this to say, you are correct.
Yeah, modern narratives basically teach men to hate themselves. I drank the Kool aid until my early 20s until I dated a narcissists and came to the realization that abusive pieces of shit come in all genders. And then when I need to turn to look for a role model there is nothing out there except right wing douche bags. Then we worry why young men gravitate towards the alt right.
think about how it must have felt for all those mothers who had to raise a daughter in an environment that has always been so hateful towards women…
Women are the most hated people the world over. No advantages, only downsides. Any man to ever walk the earth can never experience the equivalent horrors of being despised as much as a woman.
Edit: /s. Do people seriously think this way?
You’re massively ignorant of just how little the world cares about the suffering of males. The same amount of harm to a female will, ten out of ten times, generate more sympathy and outrage than that same harm to a male.
When Boko Haram attacked hundreds of thousands of children, the only reports that generated any outrage were the ones talking only about girls being kidnapped, even though they murdered all the boys. Hell, when the victims were all male, the sex wasn’t even stated in the articles, it’s just “students” etc. But every single time girls were victimized, you’d better believe “girls” or “schoolgirls” was explicitly used. The reason is simple–people in general actually give a shit about girls.
The empathy gap between the sexes is very real, and your comment is a perfect example of it.
Damn, I can’t tell if this is honest or some really deep cutting sarcasm/satire.
Edit: the autism got me again
You could not have proven their point more strongly if you tried.
Fact is, even if it was “always a man”, the fact of the matter is that the vast, vast majority of men don’t do it, making the assumptions about men not only immoral, but inaccurate.
White supremacists use the exact same logic, pointing at crime statistics, to justify prejudice toward black people. This is the male sex version of “around blacks never relax”, nothing more, don’t pretend otherwise.
I’m a man, I’m not a rapist. In fact I’m the survivor of childhood sexual abuse. It’s absurdly offensive to me to be called the thing I hate most, an rapist. And I hate that I’m fair game at being called that, simply because I was born the “bad gender”.
The thing is I like being a man, I’m proud to be a man, I’m happy with my life. but even saying that makes people look at you weird. I have no idea why.
White supremacists use the exact same logic, pointing at crime statistics, to justify prejudice toward black people. This is the male sex version of “around blacks never relax”, nothing more, don’t pretend otherwise.
Often including literally the same data from the same source, just broken down by gender instead of race. You see UCR crime stats are perfectly reasonable for drawing population level conclusions from when talking about sex, but are deeply flawed to the point of uselessness when talking about race.
But men and black folks share a lot when it comes to the criminal justice system. For example, if I asked you for some data to use as a demonstration that the criminal justice system is unfairly biased against black folks (or for white folks) you could name off a litany of statistics. Essentially every one of those examples also has a gender gap, and it’s against men. For many of them the gender gap is larger than the racial one.
See it’s funny how it’s always men who take criticism for being immature and never ever women. My ex was ridiculously stunted. She was a capricious, gas lighting brat. The ratio of immature men to women out there is pretty even, yet it’s a running joke that men are the immature ones. My ex couldn’t even cook herself lunch, hold a job, and expected me to just hand her money like I’m her dad. Plenty of women out there like that too, just as many as there are man boys out there who think their wives are their mom. But it’s only ever a thing to go after the men on this issue
If it’s truly “not all men” then you don’t need to take everything online at face value if you aren’t one of the toxic men that this post is addressing.
Using the word men to criticise only the toxic ones and telling all the ones that aren’t toxic to just not feel addressed is pretty weird to me.
Husband’s bad
Good lord the discourse here is about as well as the man or bear discussions.
Something I notice is how everytime someone makes these kinds of criticisms, the counterarguments turn into a pit of semantics and extropolations. As if the original post was a massive research thesis rather than just women venting frustration over the entitlement and danger they’re subjected to daily.
You gotta look past the specific wording to see the overarching societal themes, emotions, and issues. It’s like those magic eye pictures.
The undercurrent of misogyny is so so rampant on Lemmy, worse even than reddit was. Posts like this bring it right out. I can’t believe how many upvotes some of these red-pill-ass comments have. It’s really discouraging to see and often makes me too nervous to speak up on women’s issues here on Lemmy, lest I be absolutely brigaded.
At least the bear can’t use a keyboard and thus wouldn’t be able to try and bully me into shutting up on the internet, so there’s another instance where I’d choose a bear over a random man.
The difference is that shitting on men is acceptable. At worst it’s venting a bit. And collectively attacking men is fine.
Not like saying something negative about a woman, in which case you have to be very absolutely clear that you are only talking about that one woman in that one scenario and that it is in no way representative of any other scenario or woman, and even then you’ll be accused of misogyny.
But then this notion that it’s OK to talk shit about men but women are either positive or victims at worst shows in a lot of feminist lingo.
For example, what do you call it when a company markets a version of a product specifically to women and charges a higher price in doing so and women buy it? The pink tax. What do you call it when a company markets a version of a product specifically to men and charges a higher price in doing so and men buy it? Male fragility.
Goodness gracious, it’s almost like you’re commenting on the thread almost a day later and maybe the comments are a bit different now, as opposed to earlier.
Lemmy is a lot less women-friendly, queer-friendly, trans-friendly than the rest of the fediverse. That really needs to change.
I agree there is sexism, but were you on Reddit for those first few years? This place is a Disney movie compared to how Reddit used to be.
It’s insane. They get absolutely bent the fuck out of shape when women don’t immediately trust them to go into dark alleys with them and when a woman just says explicitly, off the top, what she wants and it doesn’t line up with their desires they go feral telling her unreasonable she’s being.
They talk such big shit about being generalized and then in turn refuse to accept a woman’s individual choices and preferences. They don’t even stop to understand that women cannot read minds to know who’s safe or not, and frankly just in that they kinda show exactly why they might be having trouble.
—
“I’d just like some basic emotional maturity.”
“Ok so this one time a woman was mean to me so real quick I’m gunna weaponize that and tell you that it gives me permission to be a big fucking baby.”
They get absolutely bent the fuck out of shape
Yet you’re the one whining 🤔