show transcript
chirasul posted:
my only advice is to BE CAREFUL posting about holiday traditions around europeans. you’ll post something casual like “anyone else watch the old Grinch movie every year? what a classic” and a european will appear as if summoned and say some shit like “funny how USAmericans always CONVENIENTLY forget that Not Everyone On Earth is from The USA……… no of COURSE we dont watch ‘the grunch’ or whatever the fuck that is…. our tradition is to attend a community showing of Glummdorf the Racial Stereotype”
themainspoon replies with screenshots of several tumblr tags and comments:
riseupriseupandcomealong:
my mom’s (american) class tried doing a language exchange thing w a sister school in spain and they decided to send each other boxes of gifts for christmas. the spanish class made remarks about oh christmas in the usa is so commercialized we have ~real traditions~ here and then my mom opened a box full of blackface dolls and blackface doll ornaments and blackface clothespins in front of her students
raygender:
Did once have a Dutch woman
vehemently defend the Festive Christmas Blackface by repeating "it’s different in Europe” with increasing desperation until she was crying. Literally all anybody else present did was just like, calmly say they were uncomfortable with the practice and not change her mind when she wailed about it.
monkey-mulch:
you bring up rudolph the red nosed reindeer and they bring out Skimbo the filthy redskin and im barely even joking about that they actually had this thing called indian plays in both soviet countries and germany
themainspoon:
European children waiting patiently on Hatemas Eve for Racism Claus to slur down the chimney and segregate all of their presents by colour.
Minor correction: racist blackface black Pete isn’t a Christmas tradition. Also, we’ve had a big national talk about it, and now the only people who actually do blackface are the actual racists and the rest of us hate them.
On the Three Magi Day, we see lots of children playing them and caroling in an official charity event. Yes, Balthasar often has dark makeup to more closely match his historical depiction and it’s not racist. (I have talked to the single Black person in my town and they don’t mind.) We just can’t ship enough real Blacks in to play the third of the Magi for this one day. And yes, the Czech song is 50% basically “- Why are you black?” “- It’s the sun.”
Black people are a bit of a curiosity much like in the Middle Ages, and the attitude hasn’t changed much. It’s only people in Prague who are indifferent (except they will default to English), people outside Prague are like “what brought you here?” “oh, interesting”. The real racism is against the Romani and Muslims: most people will think “this guy is here to steal stuff / blow something up” but in Prague they will keep it to themselves.
Edit: Looks like this is unrelated to “Black Pete”, we don’t have that here
Yeah it’s Sinterklaas day on the 6th, right?
One of my Dutch coworkers always brought in chocolates. He said that once at Philips he played one of Pieter’s countrymen for the company event (yes in full makeup).
That was a while ago tho…
It’s on December 5th.
As a Dutch person who grew up with this tradition, the tradition doesn’t have all the same racist connotations that historical blackface does. “Zwarte Piet” isn’t put in a bad light but as an approachable friend who brings children gifts. I personally never experienced him as a negative stereotype in any way. There’s been plenty of attempts to tie his origins to slavery or denigrating racist stereotypes, but historians just don’t really find conclusive evidence for that. The reason seems to be more like “just cause” rather than some racist reasoning. He just sort of “popped up”, people liked the character so he stuck around.
Nonetheless, some people are uncomfortable with it. And I don’t think changing the colour of his skin should matter all that much. The story told to kids was that he’s only black due to all the chimney soot (which he climbs through to deliver presents), but a couple years the national broadcaster had a story (there’s a sort of “Sinterklaas News” programme for kids with a new exciting story each year for why this time maybe you won’t get presents but at the last moment everything works out anyway) where the boat that Sinterklaas and the Pieten take from Spain to the Netherlands sailed through a rainbow, so now all the Pieten have all kinds of different rainbow colours instead of black. They ditched some of the other stereotypical stuff (like the bright red lips and earrings) quietly because kids don’t notice nor care about that.
I don’t agree that celebrating with Zwarte Piet (Black Pete) makes someone a racist. It’s an old tradition people were born into, it’s just normal to them and people certainly don’t typically celebrate with Zwarte Piet in order to be negative towards people of colour in any way. Hell, the Netherlands is fairly well known for being tolerant.
I do however agree that if someone asks to change it because it’s uncomfortable, that getting angry about it and deliberately not changing it because of “muh traditions” certainly does seem quite racist. Piet being black is just a detail, it’s not part of the core of the tradition. Like, are these people in the pocket of “big black makeup” or something? Just make them all kinds of colours, looks a lot more cheerful too imo. Thankfully the country is moving away from him being black so hopefully in the future the debate can be laid to rest.
Zwarte Piet in itself is not that bad of a story for children, but you could just use ash as makeup to suggest the scenario instead of whatever this abomination is
Black curly wig, obvious blackface, the golden hoop earrings 😭… Zwarte Piet has been used as a racial stereotype since the late 19th century - it only got worse during the 20th century - even if its origins were originally different and imo needs to be changed (as has been tried and partially succeeded)
nervously puts his Lumumba away
I’m an immigrant in Germany who thought that was just a normal word for spiked hot cocoa 😬
Dutch guy here. Our racist saint Nicolas “Sinterklaas” with blackface “zwarte Piet” isn’t Christmas celebration. He arrives in November and celebrates his birthday on the 5th of December by giving gifts to children.
All aspects from American Christmas celebration were stolen from European traditions. The story from Scandinavia, the character from Germany, the name from the Netherlands. But the Dutch tradition isn’t Christmas. It’s racist though, not arguing that. I’m fighting it though, because fuck racism. Also the racist part is only recent, back in the old days “zwarte Piet” was a white guy with black soot all over him from climbing through the chimney. Later it became a caricature black person which is so fucked up.
Sadly there’s a lot of systematic racism deeply nestled in European cultures and traditions. Slowly we are working to getting rid of them, although there are also many fighting to keep them. But luckily we’re making progress.
But if we’re pointing fingers here, at least we’re not celebrating genocide every year by slaughtering insane amounts of turkeys with Thanksgiving 👀
They weren’t stolen, they’re descended from. Because white Americans aren’t native to the Americas and brought their traditions with them.
It was kind of a big thing, history wise?
Because the states were new and full of mixed cultures, they desperately created national holidays to create a more general national feeling among the wide variety of people. Many were hand picked, to create a national culture as the states had none. It’s all to create unity and identity.
you bring up rudolph the red nosed reindeer and they bring out Skimbo the filthy redskin and im barely even joking about that they actually had this thing called indian plays in both soviet countries and germany
IDK about the soviet union, but “indian plays” are not a (common) christmas tradition in Germany. I’ve never even heard of those.
@OP thanks for adding the transcription.
Which European country was it that added a loophole to their constitution to allow slavery as punishment then manipulated their legal system to lock a third of black men up again? I forget.
Can we not try to avoid introspection into our own racism by talking about someone else’s racism please?
Yes, this is a fucked up thing. Why do you specifically bring it up under a post about European racism tho?
On the one hand, it’s bait.
On the other hand I don’t think the country that has formalised slavery and a culture of policing which views it’s own citizens as prey really has the right to dictate conversation on race relations.
In no other field would such failure be seen as authority. You wouldn’t pick a garage to fix your car because them accidentally destroying the most engines shows they’re experts.
I disagree strongly with this sentiment. If there was one garage that was destroying engines and another garage removing all the seatbelts, sure, maybe engine-estroying-garage has their own shit going on, but that doesn’t mean that their critisism of seatbelt-removing-garage is invalid.
Imagine being from the UK and thinking it is some superior country. You’re literally a top contender for the worst group of human beings to have ever existed.
I personally don’t think the sins of the father pass to the son, because that’s what stupid assholes who haven’t developed second order thought think, so maybe consider refering to the nation as a concept instead of every living or dead Brit.
“my culture can’t have racist elements because your culture is racister!”
truly a smackdown, i am humbled.
I’m really glad we’re doing all that and this is your takeaway because that gives Europeans like yourself every excuse to do nothing. It’s okay for me to trip on this rake because somewhere an American is tripping on their rake harder.
You’re on a thread that’s effectively saying America doesn’t have racist traditions like Europe does. The comment above just calmly points out that we do, and some of it is part of our existing legal system. You don’t get to insult Europeans (in a way that seems to at least in part be made up) and then get angry when someone points out very legitimate real racism that actually effects a large number of people’s lives.
I paired down a much cruder response initially to just what you read because I thought about it and realized this was the case. I still find it disgusting to use whataboutism to ignore Europe’s racism. If your answer to is to shrug off your own country’s white supremacism because America is worse that’s bullshit. It isn’t as enlightened as you think it is.
You’re on a thread that’s effectively saying America doesn’t have racist traditions like Europe does.
[citation needed]
this post is about holiday traditions specifically, like that’d the first sentence.
at no point did anyone say america isn’t racist.
believe it or not, every western culture is racist in some way to some group.
Ah, Europeans always love to hoist racism over Americans.
Forget stones, y’all have whole-ass machine guns in those glass houses.
I’m an American.
What the fuck is this thread? Americans can insult European racism, but a European can’t point out American racism?
