I’ve often assumed Harris didn’t want to insult her boss by going against him, because I got the impression she was planning to give Netanyahu what for once she took over - especially with him escalating things further and further. Did anyone else get that vibe, or was it just wishful thinking on my part?
Despite the best economy in the world AND Netanyahu backing Trump.
The stupidity is off the charts.
The problem is the term.
Politicians and pundits talk about the economy referring to the stock market.
Citizens talk about the economy referring to the supermarket.
The US government can only directly affect the former, and most of our nation just can’t comprehend that.
Nixon attempted to freeze grocery prices for 90 days with an Executive Order. It resulted in emptying grocery stores and record inflation when the order expired. It was called the “Nixon Shock.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_shock
If you want the government to control the price of food, then you should probably move to a communist nation.
https://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/07/business/worldbusiness/07iht-controls.4.11735373.html
If you want the government to control the price of food, then you should probably move to a communist nation.
Don’t threaten me with a good time. /s
JK. The US being the US they’d immediately turn into north Korea before adopting real communist policies.
Uh, North Korea is very much not a communist country. It’s a totalitarian state whose name says they’re a “democratic republic”, and whose leadership claim is a flavor of communism, but it is absolutely nothing of the sort.
Edit: yeah whoops, I munged the semantics of your comment
The cognitive dissonance required for the economy being both the "best " and yet also people can’t afford bread is a privilege that people living pay check to paycheck simply can’t afford. Child poverty hit its all time low under Biden. Then it doubled under Biden . More American’s are living paycheck to paycheck than ever before: now a majority. Look at the memes and conversation happening in the memes here on lemmy. The struggle to afford basic goods and services is a constant theme.
When you gaslight people, telling them to ignore their lived experience and to “trust” an analysis of economy that clearly only serves billionaires: What do you expect that does to their trust in your rhetoric?
Just so everyone knows. Child poverty went down because Dems had enough power to expand the child tax credit as part of Bidens American rescue plan. The expanded credit then expired and Republicans have blocked passage of the renewed expansion. This is another thing where Republicans will do anything to harm Democrats including voting against extremely popular programs. I agree that it sucks the poverty went back up, but Dems reduced it and Republicans increased it.
Yes, but to be charitable to the people out there, they are specifically targeted by mega corporations to hole them up into a conservative-affirming digital content feed.
They are victims just as much as they are stupid.
By that logic nazi soldiers in WWII would be victims.
I don’t think the result of ignorance and stupidity are permissible.
It’s on an entirely different level today. Propaganda has always been useful for swaying public opinion, but we live in a world where an entire generation of the world’s most brilliant minds have been set to the task of optimizing ad revenue. And they certainly succeeded.
Unfortunately it turns out that “increasing engagement” virtually requires pigeonholing people into an ever-increasingly-radical echo chamber.
They weren’t necessarily victims, but you can’t just write them off as evil monsters.
We need to understandwhy people could go along with it so that we can prevent it from happening again.
It’s like saying global warming is because we pissed off Almighty Zeus, and not doing anything else to address climate change.
It’s good you’re upset about it and admit it’s a problem, but we need to actually take steps to stop it.
For decades what non voters have said for the reason they don’t vote is “both parties are the same”. They’re obviously not, however both parties moving to the right isn’t differentiating them enough for enough voters.
The solution is Dems moving left so the difference is more obvious.
Yeah bruh, your head is completely fucked if you think that tariffs, labor shortages, and selling $8 trillion in bonds is going to help you out at the fucking grocery store. Idiots gonna learn, I tell you what. Pardon my use of the general “you”, I don’t mean you in particular.
I totally agree with you. People are just plain stupid, and right wing politicians are really good at grifting idiots.
Yeah bruh, your head is completely fucked if you think that tariffs, labor shortages, and selling $8 trillion in bonds is going to help you out at the fucking grocery store.
Many people don’t believe that Trump will actually do the things he said he’d do, because it wasn’t that bad his last term and they see the reactions to his first election as hysterical in retrospect. Those that believe he will do the things he said – a minority in his coalition I think – are wingnuts that are in favor of those things.
It’s all stupid, and leaves out that the “deep state”, institutions, and moderating voices in his administration – which Trump is looking to eliminate in his second term – constrained him and kept the country largely business as usual despite his shenanigans. The adults in the room had the effect of saving us from a lot of Trump’s worst impulses, and for people who do not pay attention to politics this made the Trump-Pence administration retroactively palatable.
If this is the best economy in the world I don’t blame people for wanting to blow it up.
We’re still in recovery from covid, as is everyone else. As much as everyone likes to pretend it never happened, or it is ancient history, it’s effects are still being seen.
Right? Like, four years ago we had to shutdown big chunks of the world, inject trillions of Dollars of money into circulation to keep things vaguely moving, millions of deaths, logistical and manufacturing delays galore, and people are pissed that we’re not better off than we were before. So pissed that they want to take control from the people who have been turning it around and give it back to the people who fucked it up in the first place.
Which explains why every party that held power during COVID has lost elections since then.
Have people been keeping up on the news? Like privately Biden has been feuding with Netanyahu for months. It’s not like Biden is on board with what Netanyahu is doing. He’s been trying to change the course, but publicly attacking Netanyahu would have drawn a ton of fire from the right, which he was trying to avoid during the election season. It shocks me that people really think Biden is cheering this on.
So let me get this straight: I’m supposed to vote for someone who thinks it is too politically inconvenient to be publically against an ongoing genocide? Who is sending arms and aid to a nation committing genocide??
There were snipers on the roof of my college because of the pro Palestinian protesters. Pro Palestinian protesters get lumped in with antisemites due to just having human empathy. The voters needed something more than what we saw in the news: furrowed brows, hand wringing, and money sent for bombs. Palestinians die wretched deaths even if you feel real bad about it.
I can imagine the energy that we all could have felt if Harris/Biden had actually did the right thing.
I voted for Harris by the way. Not because I expected she’d end the genocide, but because Trump isn’t a statesman and can’t be trusted if we get dragged into war.
It shocks me that people really think Biden is cheering this on.
Probably because Biden’s support of Israel is completely unconditional and not contingent in any way on their conduct. Yeah he may disapprove of their conduct, but this won’t affect material American support at all - that would be antisimetic or whatever. Because of this Biden’s tacit disapproval doesn’t matter. It can be ignored which is what Netanyahu has been doing. Stop sending arms and Israel’s government’s dreams of conquest will collapse within a week, probably along with this government. But that’s unspeakable, apparently, and the Israeli lobby in the US needs to keep it that way.
Now a government is about to take power that won’t offer any disapproval and could probably be talked into direct military action in the region. I wouldn’t be surprised if we see American aircraft bombing Gaza and the West Bank within 6 months. Embroiling the US even deeper into this is in Netanyahu’s interest and the trump government won’t mind going along .
We don’t even have to think the dems are morally better overall and above supporting genocide. They just don’t want a full on war with Iran and increased tensions with Saudi Arabia and for this reason would harden on Israel before letting them annex the west bank which will inevitability lead to regional war. Thing would not be going this way with Kamala as president. Anyone who did vote for her out of protest is very privileged not to live in the West Bank. It’s time to call our representatives to push back on Trump expansionism in Israel. But I don’t have much hope at all.
Who is the fucking superpower here? The US could flex it’s muscles and Israel would have to obey. Biden actively chooses not to.
Why do people have this idea that the economy will do better under Trump? Where did this come from?
Peoples lived experiences under Trump turned out to be better than their current ones under Biden, pretty simple. It’s all vibes.
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” -George Carlin
I think whats missing from many analyses is the general unhappiness people have with the current system. People are suffering now under establishment politics and they don’t believe that more of the same will improve their lives (citing, justly, at least the past 16 years as an example). They are hungry for something radically different. Trump appeals to that sense of radical change on the right. The democrats have blocked their own left wing alternatives and stuck with running establishment candidates.
I don’t believe the economy will do better under trump. I don’t believe people will do better under trump. He is a fascist and his populism is all based on dangerous ideas and lies. However, I am also terminally online and politically engaged. I can easily imagine how someone less engaged can be duped by his lies. It is therefore essential that the democrats provide an alternative left-wing populist candidate that also promised genuine changes to the economic system. So that these voters have someone to turn to who isn’t trump or the inevitable future trump clones. But they’ll never allow that to happen. It threatens their donor class too much.
Trump inherited a great economy from Obama, but ran it into the ground. (His 2018 tax cuts, etc …) Trump got out just as the consequences of his actions started to happen, just as Biden became president. This left Biden with a crashed economy which he worked hard to improve during his election (the US is considered the best and strongest economy after COVID).
Now, just because it’s doing the best, it doesn’t mean everyone is in the best shape. So people are just remembering that the economy on the surface looked better during Trump ) because of Obama) and looked worse during Biden (because of Trump) and assumed that the surface was the same underneath.
What will be really interesting is that the economy isn’t as solid this time for Trump so he’s most likely going to do even more economical damage to the US that will cause it to take even longer to fix for the next president(s).
I’m skeptical she would have done anything differently than Biden in terms of Gaza. There was plenty of polling out saying that voters, especially potential Democratic voters, overwhelmingly would favor her more if she differentiated herself on Gaza. Once she got the nomination locked, there was nothing really stopping her from making some changes. Yeah, Biden would not have liked it, but what was he going to do, endorse Trump? Plus, he didn’t actually spend that much time campaigning. And as unpopular as Biden was, his endorsement really didn’t mean much.
My point is that Kamala had everything to gain and nothing to lose by changing her Gaza stance. She chose not to because she didn’t want to offend some very wealthy conservative donors. In the end, it didn’t matter. She still massively outspent Trump, just like Hillary did. What Democrats can’t realize is that fundraising dollars are less important than actual appeals to voters. Yes, fundraising is critical. But passed a certain point, ads lose their effectiveness. Once you’ve already spent a billion dollars, everyone has already made up their mind. At that point, it’s more about getting out your base. And the problem for Democrats is that the same policies that will make them very popular to wealthy donors also make them unpopular to the voters they actually need to win over to win at the national level.
Democrats should just focus on appealing to actual voters and forget the donor class entirely. They have proven that they can raise more than enough money in small-dollar donations to produce all the messaging they need.
Kamala wouldn’t have changed Biden’s positions because the only logical time to change your policies to appeal to voters is when you actually need to appeal to voters. I could see Kamala telling voters she’ll confront Israel, then turning her back on that plan after the election to appease donors, but there’s no reason she would change her policies after the point such a policy shift could actually help her. Donor dollars can come in at any time, but voters are only important during the campaign season.
What Democrats can’t realize is that fundraising dollars are less important than actual appeals to voters.
trump: “I’m going to fix everything for you and lower all you costs without any knock on consequences to you of the working class.”
DNC: “It is not nearly that simply, but I’m going to do what I can to improve your lives”
A GOP lie is cheaper than a DNC truth.
Then you run on:
“I’m going to establish national single-payer healthcare!”
“I’m going to break up the big grocery stores that are responsible for all the inflation!”
“I’m going to reign in and break up big tech!”
“My opponent wants to exterminate the Palestinians, and I will save them!”
“My opponent is a trans porn addict and is obsessed with them because of this. That’s why he’s always talking about trans people! It’s weird as fuck!”
As a politician, exaggeration and making promises you know are a stretch are fine. You are a politician, not a journalist. It’s OK to claim things that are aspirational.
This is what’s killing modern democrats. Trump is not afraid to state his ideal vision for the world and promise to fight for it, knowing full well he won’t even achieve half of it. Meanwhile, Democrats come up with these convoluted, slimy, meek programs that are dense tomes of policy papers only a few beltway consultants know or understand.
trump presented no concrete approaches except “tariffs”. Its easy to promise when there’s few to offend.
Then you run on:
“I’m going to establish national single-payer healthcare!”
And now you’ve alienated the powerful healthcare lobby
“I’m going to break up the big grocery stores that are responsible for all the inflation!”
And now you’ve alienated the powerful agribusiness
“I’m going to reign in and break up big tech!”
And now you’ve alienated the powerful tech companies
“My opponent wants to exterminate the Palestinians, and I will save them!”
And now you’ve alienated the powerful Pro-Israel groups
You could do all of this if you run as a powerful populist with a very engaged electorate. This last election showed that the electorate wasn’t engaged.
If you think the DNC is doing what it can to improve people’s lives then you either live in a different universe or haven’t been keeping up with politics the last few decades.
The ACA, IRA, the largest gun control bill in 30 years, DACA, CARD act, Fair Pay act, repeal of Don’t Ask Don’t Tell, Juneteenth Nationally Act, Honoring out Pact Act, Respect for Marriage Act, Student Loan relief
All of these in the last 2 decades by DNC. Which one of those are you saying shouldn’t have been passed?
I’m skeptical she would have done anything differently than Biden in terms of Gaza.
Likewise, but I also think there is a reason why we are seeing Israeli politicians talking about potentially annexing North Gaza and the West Bank now, after the election, and not 6 months ago.
Despite the multiple “lines in the sand” that have been crossed, I feel like Harris and Biden still had a breaking point with Israel, and maybe that breaking point could be moved closer to reason with continued pressure. I don’t know, I hate working in maybes.
But there aren’t even any maybes with Trump. He simply couldn’t care less what Netanyahu wants to do. Had he not been elected, and had Israel felt their ongoing support was a bit more conditional, I’m not sure we’d have these same sorts of plans being made by them. At least not so overtly
The timing of all this, as well as multiple conversations with Trump right after the election, can’t be coincidence. It suggests a green light was given, which would mean there was still caution while it was uncertain who would be in office.
Likewise, but I also think there is a reason why we are seeing Israeli politicians talking about potentially annexing North Gaza and the West Bank now, after the election, and not 6 months ago.
But they were openly talking about annexing North Gaza and the West Bank 6 months ago
nothing to lose by changing her Gaza stance
Except publicly undermining foreign diplomacy and presenting a national security risk by contradicting the President while secret negotiations are taking place. Which isn’t nothing.
Nobody in the administration who’s actively engaged in diplomatic negotiations during wartime, no.
I didnt say she couldn’t discuss foreign policy. She just can’t publicly condemn her boss while his surrogates are negotiating to end a conflict.
You can be skeptical all you want, the votes speak for themselves and are all publicly available for you to look at. Biden was an anomaly going against his party.
What do you mean? Biden was an anomaly in his party by supporting a genocide. Harris was the same anomaly, as she stated she would continue Biden’s policies with no changes whatsoever.
No she didn’t? I do love me some revisionist history, though I think it’s a bit soon for that.
I wonder if it would have been better for her to step down as VP when accepting the nomination. As a VP she couldn’t distinguish herself at all.
Sure she could have. VP cant be fired by the president and has no official duties beyond tie breaking in the senate. She didnt need to follow Bidens directions at all. Worst thing that could happen is that Biden could mean-girl it and ask some of his donors not to fund her. Thats about it.
I see a lot of comments that basically summarize the constituent feedback as “well I guess they’re just stupid then, can’t wait til the leopards eat your face.”
First, keep alienating these voters, sure. See how far that gets you in the next election. We need to be listening to and understanding these voters now more than ever if we are ever going to get out of this. Whether you like it or not, their vote carries as much weight as yours (maybe more depending on what state you’re in).
Second, responding to economy concerns with “well actshually, the economy is amazing. What you mean is inflation” is about the worst response you can give. It’s incredibly dismissive. When someone is scared that they can’t afford a house, can’t see retirement, can’t buy groceries, they don’t care about GDP or stock market numbers. Whatever Biden tried to do to alleviate their concerns wasn’t enough. Inflation stopped but wages didn’t catch up enough. Trump promised to fix it. He is a charlatan but desperate people will cling to anyone who gives them hope. What they experience is a system so incredibly slow to respond to their needs that the "Fight for $15“ really should be the Fight for $30 at this point.
The reason Trump and AOC are popular is that they directly speak to these concerns, whether they have a plan to fix it or not. Both speak of systemic change to make it happen. Establishment candidates don’t.
What this election has taught me is that until the Dems learn to actually prioritize working class needs over identity politics they will lose. Every time. Look at how even women’s reproductive rights was not enough to get them to vote Harris, and yet on states Trump won where there were proposals to protect abortion access, those efforts were successful.
Yes, amen, thank you. Abortion beat Harris by 20 points in my state! Clearly there are a lot of Trump voters who are with us on some things and we need to find to common ground to build a bridge and connect us so we can fix this. That common ground is pretty freaking obvious since 99% of us have one thing in common. But Nancy Pelosi has already said no so you need to fall in line and do what she tells you.
First, keep alienating these voters, sure.
Fuck 'em. What are they gonna do, elect a dictator?
Being the loudest dickheads in the room has been the maga brand since at least 2017 if not slightly earlier. The fuck your feelings party. The party full of the folks no one wants to spend a family get together with or talk to about anything of substance because of their unmitigated ignorant racist and bigoted bullshit.
I’m getting a little sick of being told we need to mollycoddle them while they continue jamming their fingers in everyone’s eye at every opportunity.
Edit-
Yelling at voters doesn’t help, neither does educating them.
These things only affect individuals, and there’s hundred of millions of voters out there, in a constantly shifting cohort.
You may as well try to bail out the rising tide with a teacup. You can expend unlimited resources on the task, and you’ll achieve precisely dick.
It doesn’t matter how wrong people are, how stupid people are, or how fucked-up their reactions to things are. You cannot effectively change that at scale, except via constant, persistent social engineering over years or even decades.
If the opposition is offering free pizza, then it doesn’t matter how much healthier and better your free salad really is. Don’t waste your time on trying to convince people, don’t waste your energy on it, don’t waste your emotions on it. People are going to choose the pizza, and you damn well know it.
If you want them to take your offering instead, you need to come up with something that hundreds of millions of people will think is tastier than pizza.
Now sure, you can try and sell people the idea that the pizza guy doesn’t wash his hands after taking a shit. You can put up giant posters of the cockroaches crawling all over the stall, and sure you might make a dent.
But when the alternative looks like a bunch of dry bitter rabbit food to them, no matter how tasty it actually is, you’re fucked.
You need to address the actual concerns of the voters (no matter how stupid), and you need to show them that you’re addressing them, in a way they’ll actually notice and appreciate.
Not ‘ought to’. Will.
What it needs is some angry people who will get up on their hind legs and fight for the working classes. It needs people who are loudly and visibly sick of the status quo, tired of the bullshit and ready to rip the face off anyone who gets in their way.
Not the fucking charity-auction Moira Schitt ghouls schmoozing up to $LARGE_CORPORATION while laughing about the dirty poors, or smirking about how bombing Palestinian children is the only moral choice.
(Seriously, Trump ought to hire Matt Miller and Vedant Patel - they did more to undermine the Dem campaign than anyone else. The optics were an unmitigated disaster.)
