The woman accused of being first to spread the fake rumours about the Southport killer which sparked nationwide riots has been arrested.
Racist riots spread across the country after misinformation spread on social media claiming the fatal stabbing was carried out by Ali Al-Shakati, believed to be a fictitious name, a Muslim aslyum seeker who was on an MI6 watchlist.
A 55-year-old woman from Chester has now been arrested on suspicion of publishing written material to stir up racial hatred, and false communication. She remains in police custody.
While she has not been named in the police statement about the arrest, it is believed to be Bonnie Spofforth, a mother-of-three and the managing director of a clothing company.
Everyone here who’s cheering this on is missing the point.
Does this person and the other agitators, suck? Yes. Are they vile? Yes.
But putting aside the morality of the UK’s lack of free speech, the press and politicians, including the current Labour administration are you using these arrests to pretend that they had no culpability.
Don’t think this begins and ends with the Daily Mail and Farage. Starmer made his bones on being anti immigrant just the same, including giving speeches about this shit in the last few weeks.
So if you really do believe in the UK’s police state approach to speech for commoners, than at least taken to account that the very rags you’re reading while they clutch their pearls, and you all cheer, are in fact the original culprits and exponentially more guilty than any dipshits they’ve arrested, or will arrest.
- Being ordinary shouldn’t protect you from legal consequences of starting nationwide riots.
- Blaming Starmer for far right riots is super weird.
- The rioters are the ones who want to turn it into a police state. This is just justice.
- You have this strange notion that it can’t be criminal to say a thing, but how many war criminals did the deeds themselves? How many evil leaders were more hands-on than their followers? The worst criminals use words and let their followers go to jail for carrying out their wishes.
- Hooray! The more people that know YOU CAN GO TO JAIL in the UK for inciting a riot on Xitter, Faceschmuk or Telegrunt, the better. Actually hooray. Actual firestarters going to jail rather than just saying they were “asking important questions”. Farage next please.
It’s almost like you don’t comprehend the situation any more than you were able to understand what I actually said.
The situation has been building for a couple of decades, but it was created almost entirely by politicians and the media. The same ones who are now pearl clutching, including Starmer.
The same politicians and media outlets who are writing with indignation and feigned horror at the “violent mobs”, will suffer no consequence, especially with the attitude you just expressed.
Because, at least in my view, being part of the media class or a politician shouldn’t protect you from the legal consequences of fomenting nationwide riots. Clearly you feel differently.
So yeah, this lady and those like her are shit buckets. I genuinely don’t care what happens to them, but I do care that people like you are pretending that they are the start and the end of this problem, when that couldn’t be further from the truth.
Oh and P.S., it’s already a police state. Look no further than their treatment of Muslims the past two decades, including stripping citizenship and imprisoning without trial, or that they’re the most surveilled country on earth… The fact that you think this is a new, or yet to come development, speak volumes.
You say I didn’t comprehend you, but in fact what happened was that I understood you and disagreed. Disagreeing with you does not equate misunderstanding you. You should try to clear those two up in your mind.
Still trying to blame Starmer for this loses you such a lot of credibility.
There’s nothing in what I said that says politicians should be exempt. Nothing. I even said Farage next please. I didn’t say that she is the start and the end of the problem. But inciting riots should send you to prison. famous or not. Especially if famous. The bad news in this is that Farage isn’t in a cell and GB News for some inexplicable reason still has a licence to broadcast.
By police state you seem to mean state with a lot of bad police. I mean more totalitarian states like North Korea. You’re BoTh SiDESing hard there. Let me be clear that I think that there are a lot of problems with racism in the UK police force, partly because of what’s been emphasised over the last while by the Conservatives and partly because there’s a lot of old racism that’s being protected, but at least you don’t get shot in the UK by the police for being black behind the wheel of a nice car.
Over surveillance, there’s some cultural assumptions you seem to think are universal but aren’t. Americans think it’s fine to let insurance companies choose who lives and dies and take everything you ever owned if you commit the crime of having cancer, Brits think it’s fine to let the state watch you on CCTV, intercept your tweets and put you in prison if you plan terrorism. Americans sometimes act like freedom of speech is top of the human rights scale whereas British folk might well put the right to live in peace higher than the right to say absolutely anything. British people think that people should be allowed (by the state) to wear whatever they like as long as it covers what underwear normally covers whereas many Iranians think women should go to prison if you can see more than their eyes. Cultures are different. So we might be heavily surveilled but we don’t feel as oppressed by that as Americans would, and we see state intervention as genuinely good in some places, like having consumer protections against corporate nastiness and free healthcare and stuff.
They don’t “lack free speech”, they’re more “free of hate speech” and a more modern society because of it
They’ve already arrested people for making jokes, arrested a kid for insulting an Olympian, and arrested someone for tweeting “the only good soldier is a dead soldier”. The UK government continues to be tyrannical and unethical.
Yes, mistakes are made, and also many more justified and deserved convictions are made.
And the fact that those three examples are the type reported on ad nauseum by gutter tabloid newspapers gives a hint as to your preferred choice of sources
Spofforth, 55, posted the false claim at 4.49pm on Monday, July 29, the day of the attack, saying: ‘Ali Al-Shakati was the suspect, he was an asylum seeker who came to the UK by boat last year and was on an MI6 watch list. If this is true, then all hell is about to break loose.’
Not defending this woman, but as an American, the thought of being arrested for lying on the internet (or repeating a rumor, as she claims) seems insane.
Whereas the true insanity is to let people get away with openly inciting race hate which leads to life threatening real-world consequences for the people on the receiving end of the lies.
Absolute free speech is the refuge of those without the common sense and maturity to realise it has led to deaths. It is entirely appropriate to legislate for those who want, or encourage, life threatening harm to come to others.
thought of being arrested for lying on the internet
Why? If you spreaded false rumor which nearly resulted in a couple hundred people being burned alive, you 100% should be arrested. Words have consequences.
The fault I find with this reasoning is that it only works retroactively. The determination of whether or not this random woman committed a crime when she tweeted a rumor relies on the actions that other people decided to take.
If her tweet hadn’t gone viral, would it have still been a crime? That’s an unsettling way to determine whether someone is a criminal who needs to be locked up or not.
The fault I find with this reasoning is that it only works retroactively. The determination of whether or not this random woman committed a crime when she tweeted a rumor relies on the actions that other people decided to take.
You appear somehow ignorant how the law works. It is about adult humans being able to predict consequences of their actions.
If you are travelling at speed (but still below the speed limit) on an icy road and you kill someone, you go to prison for a long time as you should be able to predict you may kill someone.
If you shoot a projectile and it goes beyond the boundaries of your land, you may end up in jail again - you should be able to predict the projectile may go beyond the boundary.
She should have been able to predict the consequences of her spreading lies.
Adults are responsible for the consequences of their actions.
You’re basically saying
wow she only got arrested because she got caught
And there’s a difference in magnitude in most crimes too. Like if you steal a grape from a supermarket as you do your weekly shop, that’s very different to stealing an entire chicken, which is also different to stealing a TV.
The Picard Maneuver is a the owner and organiser of a secret pedo ring operated by Mormons in Utah.
If this is true (wink wink), you better hide the entrance to your secret basement.
…
Imagine if intentionally sending crazy people on crazy missions to intentionally cause harm wasn’t OK.
I understand the point you’re making, but the fact that you are able to type this with full confidence that cops aren’t going to show up at your door tomorrow is my point.
Lying is wrong, but the police arresting someone for repeating/creating a made up name of a murderer on twitter is bizarre to me.
(edit: for clarity, because she might have been the one who made up the fake name)
did she repeat it? or was she the source?
The article implies she was the sources and thus, despite her claims, made it up
There are different levels of lying though aren’t there. This woman had a history of stirring trouble, and if the motive AND outcome of this lie were to stir up trouble on as large a scale as possible, then to not oppose this behaviour would be to invite more unrest.
The whole country just rioted based on a complete fabrication; a racist lie, cynically fabricated for the purpose of provocation. That needs to be addressed, and if she is the provocateur then she needs to be punished, because that type of behaviour is evidently destructive to society.
I get what you’re saying, but I really expected the post to be something more direct, like a specific threat.
I don’t think anyone would be arrested here for saying “people are going to go crazy if X turns out to be true”.
It would have to be more like “Let’s burn things down!” or “Somebody should take care of (blank)”.
That’s the thing about dog-whistles.
The defence you posit is the same as a politician chosing words carefully to imply one thing, while technically not lying: for aome reason they think that’s a defence, but were a six-year-old try it they’d be straight off to the naughty step.
She lit a fire which was fanned by agents provocateurs from outside the country (ie, Farrage and Yaxley-Lennon). The useful idiots picked it up and rioted with it.
Actions should have consequences. Her lie set of at least a week of needless chaos and destruction. It gave racist shit-heads an excuse (in their minds at least) to vandalize property, attack police and counter-protesters, and terrorize innocent people.
If she was the person who originated this lie then I hope they throw the book at her. If she just publicized a lie she heard from elsewhere she should still be punished, but probably not as much.
Freedom of speech should not equate to impunity for spreading egregious lies and hate-mongering. We should be coming down harder on people here in America who deliberately spread lies with bad faith intentions. Skin color, religion, etc should have any sway in when we apply such actions and when we don’t.
ETA: I didn’t downvote you, by the way. You’re entitled to your opinion, and I feel like your point is a gateway to deeper discussion.
I appreciate the discussion. I knew this wouldn’t be a popular take and almost deleted it before commenting.
Again, I think spreading lies on the internet is an appalling thing to do, but I just wanted to share my disbelief that someone could be arrested for it. Like, imagine if the cops showed up with handcuffs for everyone’s grandparents for every racist email forward (or Facebook post) they shared.
I know it’s tempting to want bad things to happen to people we don’t like, but I think situations like this are a test of our ethics and values.
Like, imagine if the cops showed up with handcuffs for everyone’s grandparents for every racist email forward (or Facebook post) they shared.
If only. Wouldn’t that be fucking grand.
The amount of harm and loss of live those stupid things lead to has no place in society and people should be held responsible for it.
Again, I think spreading lies on the internet is an appalling thing to do, but I just wanted to share my disbelief that someone could be arrested for it.
How is it really different from starting a white supremacy group and calling to ‘expel immigrants’ in posters around a city? The only difference from any other racist/terrorist action is that it was placed online. Do we really need to allow that to be okay?
How about we get both sides of the argument to meet in a big large room, we can present the facts of what happened, and allow trained professionals and/or a selection of her peers to judge what should be punished on a case by case basis?
Nah sounds ridiculous, let’s just do nothing.
There’s a logical reasoning thing called modus ponens (it has a latin name because it’s not exactly new). It goes
A. If A then B.
Hence B.
That’s exactly how she called for all hell to break loose. You can’t claim that you didn’t mean B when you say “A. If A then B.” It’s just that A was false and “If A then B” was also false. Nevertheless, a lie-ridden far right call to violence over the murder of innocent children is what it was, and it was heeded by the far right nut jobs who rioted over the issue, targetting the immigration lawyers that had nothing to do with the deaths of the children until she posted the lie. She incited violence. Jail. Good riddance.
Keep your far right racist lying incitements to violence to yourselves, or you’ll end up in prison, fascists! You’re not welcome in the UK and you never have been. Thousands of ordinary people counter protested against hundreds of racist agitators. Good.
I mean, you’re pointing the finger at the spark while ignoring the barrels of fuel stored in dangerous conditions. These people WANTED to riot, if she hadn’t given them the reason, they’d have found another soon.
“As a German, I find myself groaning when I see this discussion come up. Conspiracy theorists are not rational. If fascists could be swayed by facts and reason, they would not believe what even the most minor bit of fact checking would disprove. Allowing them to spew their nonsense freely or join a coalition won’t disabuse them of their notions; it will help them seek and build echo-chambers and become further radicalized.We see the echo chamber effect on every online platform. Whether or not the holocaust happened, for example, is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact. You’re entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts. Making up your own facts is called lying. And when your lies are so malicious and harmful that they actually pose a threat to other people or the nation itself, then yes, that should absolutely be punishable. It’s no different than slander or libel.
“What value is there to allowing holocaust denial? Serious question. And I don’t mean appealing to the slippery slope of how it leads to other worse prohibitions. There’s a lot of arguing for Free Speech for its own sake - that Free Speech is the highest virtue in and of itself that must never, ever be compromised, for any reason, and that this should be self-evident. But I ask, what’s the harm in not allowing holocaust denial, specifically? What is the benefit in allowing it? There is none. Nothing good will ever come out of someone spewing holocaust denial. Ever. You won’t get a thoughtful debate beneficial to both parties. They’re wrong, simple as that. The “best” outcome you’ll get out of it is that you can convince a denier or someone on the fence that they’re wrong. Great. The best outcome involves suppressing it. There are, however, a hell of a lot potentially bad consequences in that their stupidity can infect others and shift the Overton window their way.
“The reason that the majority of modern Germans look at the Nazi flag and feel nothing but revulsion whereas a sizable portion of US southerners actually fly the confederate flag and defend it (Heritage, not hate, or It was about states’ rights, not slavery, or Slaves weren’t treated so bad) is that Germans were forbidden from telling each other comforting lies about their past."
— quote I stole from unknown redditor
That’s a very well written quote that makes a good point.
Conspiracy theorists form echo-chambers to repeat their ridiculous claims amongst themselves and it poses a challenge to the rest of us to figure out how to prevent this without compromising our own values.
The sentiment I was trying to communicate is that involving the police as enforcers of truth on the internet is simply a foreign concept to me as an American. It feels heavy handed and I think carries an obvious risk.
It’s easy to cheer on when it’s happening to someone we dislike, like the racist lady in question, but I think it’s important to take a step back and make sure it truly aligns with our basic principles of freedom.
No, it’s never OK to incite violence. The crime here isn’t lying on the internet, it’s spreading misinformation in order to incite violence.
The UK doesn’t have the same freedom of speech as in the US. You’re much more accountable for what you say. If you’re inciting violence, intentionally or unintentionally, you should be held to account.
I’m not suggesting we start imprisoning people for resharing misinformation, but sometimes people need a refresher on how to think critically instead of mindlessly reposting because of an emotional reaction. Hopefully that’s what she gets.
As an American, I wish out right lying and libel was more prevalently an arrestable offense.
Spreading outrageous lies that result in harassment and violence is clearly not something to tolerate.
The US is not a good example to bring up if you want to argue it is fine to allow it.
Allowing others’ speech is the default. The ethical question is where we draw the line in silencing or punishing someone’s speech.
In the US, the line would generally be specific threats or calls for violence. Someone being hateful or spreading awful rumors online could be a lawsuit by the wronged party, but you aren’t going to have cops show up at your door with handcuffs.
Allowing others’ speech is the default
Freedom of speech is not a freedom to lie.
If you lie and say I stabbed 3 children, you open yourself to libel.
But if you do it for a fake person and it starts riots, what should happen? There are no damages to an individual like libel, instead it’s for society as a whole. So do nothing when the outcome is worse? Seems backward.
I think the difference is whether there’s a specific threat or call to action. “If (blank) is true, (blank) will likely happen” is a sentiment I see online frequently, even here.
I would consider that different than, for example, Trump instructing a mob of people to “march on the capital” on January 6th. That’s a call to action that resulted in deaths.
This lady sounds like someone’s racist mom who shared misinformation on social media and her post went viral. She deserves to be shunned, but I don’t think jail is the right answer.
I don’t think that’s quite right, because there’s no instruction associated with spreading lies about someone. You don’t have to say “you should attack this person based on this [random lie]” to be guilty of libel. The lie itself causes the bad consequences that now make you guilty.
Metro UK - News Source Context (Click to view Full Report)
Information for Metro UK:
MBFC: Left-Center - Credibility: Medium - Factual Reporting: Mixed - United Kingdom
Wikipedia about this source
While she has not been named in the police statement about the arrest, it is believed to be Bonnie Spofforth
This, I don’t like. If you - the newspaper, the means of information - are not sure about a name you should really refrain from using it.
It would be not the first time people get their lives ruined by some careless journalist because of a namesake or just an error.
It’s not that different from “spreading rumors”.
That aside, in this case, it is probably a rumor from an inside source. Still. Not a fan.
They know it’s her, they’re just shielding themselves from libel claims. The same way they’ll say “allegedly” until a conviction.
If they were trying to shield themselves they could have not dropped a name. This is different than saying allegedly about someone who was arrested and the name released.
I’ve also said this before and I’ll say it again: names of suspects and even convicted criminals should not be shared unless necessary*. That just makes no sense for rehabilitation as it opens people up for judgement in a court of opinion. Justice is the job of the justice systems and should not generally involve the wider public.
Could there be issues with the judgement or other events where the only way to achieve justice is via the press? Sure, probably, but I don’t think the default should be that if I google the name of someone I can find if they or someone with a similar name (and god forbid, appearance) were involved in a crime.
*: unless necessary here can cover cases like trying to find an individual on the run, or when their previous crime is meant to exclude them from specific lines of work, although even that should be on a need-to-know basis imo, not public info.
Yep. In Germany for example we don’t name perpetrators at all, neither alleged nor convicted. Newspapers are not allowed to refer to them with anything but the first name plus first letter of the last name, or initials. The only exception is when someone dangerous is on the run and they need help from the public to ID him, in that case the name is released after an ethical review board from the police force decides so (it’s mostly done on the spot without delay, but there is a procedure at the very least).
A general exception is made for persons of interest, be it celebrities, politicians or something. For general members of the public, nothing truly identifiable is released. Minors (generally below the age of 18, or people tried as minors, i.e. committed a crime while below 18 but only tried later) will not be named whatsoever; only their age and gender are released.
Race is never mentioned, unless it is a race-related hate crime.
Race is never mentioned, unless it is a race-related hate crime.
We need something like this in my country. There’s a newspaper here (il giornale) that always has headlines like
- African robs store
- African rapes girl
- Illegal alien shoplifts
- Mad African shouts in a mall
- Foreigner madness: demands food then gets mad when denied
And so on. The last (foreigner madness) is almost a catchphrase for them, if you search for “la follia dello straniero” it comes out only results from that outlet
A crime is a crime and the criminal nationality is irrelevant, unless you need to push some agenda
Meanwhile here in Sweden, everyone’s criminal record is public, and even available to search online. Unless the crime is something minor punished with a fine. It’s really ridiculous, everything is publicly available online, like addresses, phone numbers, the cars or pets people own. Unless you have a protected identity, it’s all available to everyone online. I tried to apply for a protected identity on account of being a public servant that is involved in making decisions many people very much dislike. But I couldn’t provide a concrete threat so it was denied. It’s like the system is still geared towards pre-internet times. The system itself in fact doxxes every resident in the country.
As much as this behavior is appalling, blaming it on one individual is absurd. Social networks provide incentives to lie and stir people up, it can even be profitable. As long as that’s the reality, there will be lies that cause riots.
I look at it the way I look at drunk driving. If you drink and drive, most of the time you’re going to be fine. You’re not going to get in an accident, and you’re not going to get caught. But what you’re doing is still dangerous and wrong.
If you do get caught because you were swerving all over the road and a cop saw you, you’re going to be in some shit, but it probably won’t ruin your life. If you cross the divider into oncoming traffic and obliterate a family in a minivan, on the other hand, once you’re out of the hospital you should be dragged to court and then to prison for what you actually did.
Deliberately spreading misinformation online is like driving drunk. You’re going to get away with it 99% of the time, and nothing major will actually come from the lies you spread specifically. However, if you’re so reckless with your lies that you cross that metaphorical divider and start a series of escalating race riots that do demonstrable damage, then you get to suffer the consequences for what you’ve done.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Not if they start facing repercussions for their actions, like this woman is.
