Show transcript
Screenshot of a Tumblr post by indigosfindings:
imagine if someone just like started addressing you as Dipshit, like youre just talking about your day & they say “no way Dipshit, that’s crazy.” and then maybe you say to them that you would prefer not to be addressed as Dipshit & their response is “well in my major metropolitan area ‘Dipshit’ is not considered an insult. im not saying i think youre stupid when i call you Dipshit, i call my mom dipshit all the time” so you say Thats cool but please dont call Me that. and then they just repeat that it’s something they say daily, they call all of their best friends & lovers dipshits & are called dipshit in return. “my grandma calls me dipshit at the dinner table, it doesnt mean anything.” so you say Yes i understand that your friends & grandma arent bothered by being called Dipshit but i am, & i would prefer if you didnt address me as that. and they say “it’s literally not possible for me to stop calling you dipshit, and it’s not reasonable for you to ask me to, dipshit.” anyway this post is about nothing in particular
one more report and I’m locking this whole mf thread
I understand this is a controversial topic but y’all need to behave your damn selves
The basics are:
- This is fundamentally a discussion about hurtful language, including slurs. I don’t mind them being mentioned / referenced (in fact I would argue it’s important to talk about them), but I’m not going to tolerate them being directed at people. This is y’alls final warning on that. I’ve removed some comments already but after this I’m just going to start handing out bans.
- I know there’s alternate interfaces for Lemmy, but on the basic version I’m familiar with, under each comment there is a button on the left end of the bar of buttons with three dots and a little arrow indicating additional options. If you press it, you will find that you have the option to “block” other users. This function will make it so that you no longer have to see anything they post or interact with them. This is a fantastic feature that I highly recommend utilizing in the event that someone says something you find upsetting that does not break the rules of this comm or instance.
Language is owned by the group.
Individuals don’t dictate to the group.
This individual is asserting a definition of “dipshit” that contradicts the definition held by the group.
are you saying it’s unreasonable to ask not to be called something you don’t want to be called?
Depends, I’ve had people request I stop calling them “dude” or “man.” The first of which being my dad, who insisted when I was young that it was disrespectful and I should call him “dad” or “father.” This did not go well for him, even to this day, spoke to him last night and at one point said “Dude so I was reading this article the other day…” My grandma also requested the same, as ironic as that is in this post, and was met with similar resistance. It’s like asking someone to quit saying “like,” it can be done but it takes active effort to change their speech pattern, to which I say “no, it is neither disrespectful nor gendered, and I will not actively change my entire speech pattern to satiate an unreasonable demand from one person that I know, so you can either get over being called dude just like literally everyone else I talk to, or we don’t have to talk, dad.” I’m not doing it to piss him off, it is just how I talk.
“Hey, son, when you call me dude it feels like you don’t respect me, like I’ve lost the right to be your father, something that I am incredibly proud of. I know that you mean it conversationally, so I try not to take it personally, but in my mind it’s a term of mutual connection and endearment and it means a lot to me to be able to hold that title for you.”
Oof, fuck, I did emotional damage to myself.
There’s a certain societal inertia you have to push against, and it’s unrealistic to expect everyone to change these patterns for you instantly. Friends/family/kind acquaintances will take some time, and others may never change for your sake.
I get that it’s challenging for some people, but the actual difficult part is just getting people to have the baseline of respect to even try.
Like at any larger social gathering, even among “woke” commies, etc, someone is going to be misgendering someone else like every other minute, but we’re all doing our best and actually trying. We just muddle through.
I think most peoole that agree with OP understand the societal inertia, and complications occured by having a prefrence contrary to the majority.
I think the point of this post is to be part of that pushback. To have those who have never been in the minority to have some empathy. So that when we meet somebody who has a prefrence that makes you do some work, people may be more inclined to accomidate and support othrs.
I understand the desire to have people use your pronouns, and as long as one can see what gender you are “presenting”, one should use those pronouns.
If someone prefers other pronouns, then I’m sorry… Many people (me included) have a hard time remembering names… I wouldn’t have a chance remembering a large set of different pronouns if I can’t even remember the names of that person. A pronoun is a non specific way of addressing someone and a break life saver like “you”…
To to switch to an all inclusive them/they for everybody seems overreaching.
If it’s not obvious what pronouns someone prefers, then they shouldn’t be annoyed if someone makes repeatedly mistakes.
And this makes it hard to distinguish a mistake from an insult…
It isn’t about remembering names, it’s about being willing to use the correct one when informed. Exchange pronouns for proper names to test the concept.
If you forget someone’s name and you think it is ‘Pat’ but it is actually ‘Kelly’ would you continue to call them 'KellyPat’after remembering that it is ‘PatKelly’?
*Edit: I love that I mixed myself up even in my example. But to prove my point I’ll call the correction out and be fine with that.
My problem (and many others I guess) is that i won’t remember Pat or Kelly the next time. And the next time. And the next time etc etc. Especially if I only see her ever so often. No chance to remember special pronouns beyond what gender they present. He/she/him/her is relatively easy (but not always…) them/they or anything else they prefer seems overly complicated in a social setting.
But if I remember the name and intentionally use others to taunt you, then yes, I would be a cunt. And I try not to be one…
The problem isn’t someone getting a pronoun wrong on occasion. It’s when someone deliberately uses the wrong one, and often times stresses the the pronunciation, in order to make sure you know they choose to use the wrong one deliberately.
I think both is problematic.
If you know that dipshit is not meant in a harmful way by the other person, then why do you care being called it?
Same on the other side, if you know the other person wouldn’t like to be called dipshit, why would you call them that?
I really think they both have problems that they need to address within themselves.
Not wanting people to do things to you is not wrong. I don’t want people to defecate on me, even in an affectionate or accidental way, even though it’s not harmful. Is that wrong?
I don’t want you to walk next to me on the street. The view of you pisses me off.
Is that wrong? Or am I allowed to tell you where you shall walk?
If the person truly doesn’t mean no offense with “dipshit” but you still take offense from it, that’s what I’m talking about.
Same as walking on the street, if you don’t want to see the person, just don’t go on the street close to them. If you don’t want to hear something they’re saying then don’t speak to them, avoid them.
I already said that if someone doesn’t want to be called dipshit, then there’s no reason to keep calling them that.
It feels like your looking for a way to be offended. If someone told me they don’t want me to walk next to them, I wouldn’t walk next to them because we should be allowed to control a space around ourselves. If someone said they don’t like looking at me, that’s solved by them not looking at me.
Reasonably remove yourself from a situation if you can. Don’t harass people. Treat people how they want to be treated. Work together to solve problems. This is stuff children learn, it’s not hard. Because the problem with your logic is that you can say “I’m allowed to invade your personal space. It’s on you to leave.”
But, because you want to feel offended, you will likely say “Oh, what if my personal space is five miles around me what then?!?” to which I would roll my eyes, say ok, and let you enjoy your zero friends.
That’s not how it works at all.
The person being addressed has an issue and reasonably has requested an accommodation that costs nothing.
The other person says nah, can’t be bothered, I don’t care how you feel. Suck it.
These are not the same thing.
Edit: words.
It doesn’t cost nothing though.
If a person habitually calls everyone “dipshit”, they need to pay close attention every time they speak with that person, making sure to think about every word coming out of their mouth and making sure none of these is “dipshit”.
Just try speaking to someone and never using “the” ever, it’s incredibly hard. If you’re used to speaking in a certain way, it’s very hard to change and takes a lot of mental work. And it’s ok if it’s one word with one person… but what if everyone decides a word or multiple words isn’t fine to them? It gets harder and harder.
This is not a complete non-issue like it’s being treated.
Actually I think the more people “banning” the word (so to speak), the easier it is to change your patterns.
Take the N word, many many white people around the 25-40yo range used to let it fly, mostly in an eminem type sense rather than a racist (ykwim) sense, and those people have almost all changed by now to not say it anymore because nobody is cool with it.
Meanwhile, my dad, my grandma, and one trans person I know, are the only three people who have ever said “stop calling me dude.” I say it every 3rd sentence to literally everyone, including my mom who I am not calling a “male human” when I say “dude,” I legitimately cannot stop saying it, especially since I only have to do it when talking to those three specific people, and I disagree with my dad that “it’s disrespectful,” and I disagree that it is a gendered term (in this context, it can be, like “how you guys doing” is different from “this is the guy’s bathroom” and anyone denying this is purposefully obtuse.)
I have no scientific basis for this of course but that’s my theory anyway.
“It’ll be hard but I’ll try.”
A lot of people have a hard time admitting they’re wrong or don’t know.
Studies show self esteem is more impacted by the values a person grew up with than their own values. That means most of the time, developing or changing your own values doesn’t increase self esteem. You need to be respected in a way that makes sense in the culture you grew up with. Some people can overcome their birth culture, but not many.
You make an interesting point about intent, but I think the missing part is trust. If I trust a person’s intent, then their actions matter less in terms of a reason for feeling hurt. But, how many people does a typical person trust that way? Even so, after being confronted with the unintended consequences of their actions, they should realign their actions with their intent in the face of that new information.
Definitely agree. It depends on the situation and context/situational clues.
Remember that we are talking about a metaphor here, the “actual” situation that is talked about is people calling trans femme people “dude” or “bro”.
I know a bunch of people who really just use these words all the time on everyone and never were they trying to say that a woman they call that is actually a man. I suppose it’s possible and happens sometimes, but I imagine it’s very rare.
I’ve had people say “you” is a slur.
Fuck off.
I could make a more detailed argument, but no. I should not need to.
Drag’s never said “you” is a slur, drag doesn’t even require that people use drag’s preferred pronouns.
People just get embarrassed to be misgendering drag on their own and get upset with drag about it.
Edit: Fuck every single Nazis, and fuck this dragon retard and fuck the POS mods. Suck my dick and balls.
