Props to the movies that shout the “Loose!” command
As I understand it, that’s still not very historically accurate. It was not really a thing for archers to nock and loose together like they do in the movies.
Never really made sense to me, loose all the arrows at once and then give a break between volleys? Gives everyone a chance to hide behind their shield, and then advance when it’s clear. Unless volleys are perfectly timed between multiple rows of archers.
Random arrows flying constantly never gives the enemy a chance to feel safe since it’s a constant barrage, and there’s no wasted time for the archers needing to wait for the command to fire.
Archers were strategic weapons, not the main crux of killilng. They were used to do things like keeping an enemy division pinned down so that your cavalry can move around them or one of your own divisions can reach a more advantageous position. A well placed concentrated barrage could force an enemy to move in a direction that is more advantageous to you, etc…
They weren’t the primary means of killing people. They were the means of steering the battle where the general wanted it to go.
That’s why I use a staff and just unleash a huge lightning strike to destroy my enemies
Quite right and why make your fastest, best archers wait for your slowest ones?
Yeah, real warfare isn’t a good spectator sport. It’s chaotic, difficult to understand what’s going on, things take way longer or way shorter to happen than would make sense for a film, and it’s nothing like the orderly battles shown to us by Hollywood. The fog of war is a real thing. But that’s why they do it, because if they did it realistically it wouldn’t be very fun to watch.
Actually, it worked pretty much exactly this way in the first stages of battle.
In the opening moves of a medieval battle, archers were essentially like the “creeping fire” that they used in World War 1; it’s purpose is to keep the enemy immobile behind their shields and unable to advance as fast as they would like. Your army can’t rush to take an advantageous position if they’re constantly having to stop and hide under their shields.
In WW1, in the Somme especially, the artillery would lay down what they called “creeping fire” to keep the enemy huddled in their trenches while their own soldiers advance behind the wall of firepower. Archers basically played the same role.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volley_fire Y’all really just make stuff up without even checking wikipedia huh? It wasn’t typically used in medieval Europe for bows beyond the initial volley, though of course initial volleys were still a thing. You didn’t just have elements of archer formations fire whenever they decided the range seemed right.
I followed the cited source for the wikipedia claim, and it’s just a guy writing a paper and saying his opinion. He’s not citing anything deeper to cover his claim about an initial volley followed by targetting individual solders. Just because it’s in a paper doesn’t mean it’s right, or even well-researched.
Sure, it FEELS right, and that does have weight with living history and experimental archeology, but I worry that “feeling” is the only thing anyone is actually citing in this whole conversation, including Wikipedia.
You’re misunderstanding. War bows can’t be held, the bow is way too heavy to allow you to hold an arrow and loose it at will; drawing and loosing are two actions of a singular movement.
Volleys were used, but the similarity with the way they’re used with firearms only exists in the use of crossbows, which were invented specifically because they allow to draw and shoot in two motions (and also they require virtually no training compared to war bows)
Or that they’re holding the bow drawn for a long period of time, waiting for the order to “fire”.
Long bows averaged a 200lb draw weight. Try holding that for 5 minutes.
Literally - you can pick out English longbowman bodies from the shape of their skeletons
I “fire” traditional recurve bows and honestly it ends up being a lot of core, back, and your front side shoulder, but this image is funnier.
I guess also another thing that gets me is when they are fire from the hip, with no anchor point. You draw back the bow to the same spot every time, then move your bow hand to aim. Radically changing how you draw, while hitting precision shots at varying range is like John Whicking archery, but nearly everyone with a bow in movies can do it. And they almost never wear gloves on a bow that has to be hundreds of pounds of draw to go through armor. How are your fingers not worn to bone?
Also arrows are pretty custom depending on draw weight, tip weight, draw length, and there are various types. Where do these perfect arrows you need all come from, hrmmm Legolas?
I am now realizing I took this meme way too seriously, but I’ve already typed it up, so here we are.
I never blamed the archer on the walls of Helms Deep. Waiting for the enemy to get all the way up to your walls was dumb enough, but waiting while having drawn your bow for what must’ve felt like ages for a human archer, is fucking rediculous. Terrible leadership.
You don’t want your archers to be excausted before the battle even starts, just so you can look really unbothered on top of your wall.
I admire you for holding the archery in LOTR to a high standard of realism even when the films feature a giant flying and levitating eye.
Fiction only really works when it takes itself seriously. If they just don’t follow any rules or logic then you know there’s no reason to care about what’s happening, because the author didn’t. In LotR the archery follows the logic from out world. Yes, there’s also magic and stuff, which all follows consistent rules in the universe. The magic does not effect the rules of archery. Maybe elves can be more agile with their bows, but it should still be grounded in the rules of their universe.
Versimilitude is important. Self consistency. Just because you introduce one unrealistic element doesn’t mean everything else that is unrelated to it should be thrown out the window, too. The existence of a magical evil spirit entity doesn’t change how nonmagical humans would interact with everyday physics.
I mean, this depends heavily on the type of bow used (which is also largely the source of confusion) it’s common for archers who aren’t medieval war longbow archers to draw then aim because it’s a lot easier to do. And lower draw weight bows certainly did see use in war until plate armor became common enough to make them nearly useless in warfare.
I know that modern bows with the radial cam thing have different hold vs draw requirements.
Not being a bow-knower, do the other sorts (long, recurve, etc.) Not have a similar thing that can happen?
By modern I take it you mean compound bows. No other types of bow have that. The force you need to pull back is at its maximum when at full draw. The exact scale of 0-100% through the draw varies with different bow designs, material and even age as it can permanently deform with repeated use.
Loose!
Still incorrect. You wouldn’t have archers sitting there pulling thier bows getting tired until ordered to release
Who said anything about holding the bow nocked all the time?
Generally they would yell “DRAW!” And the soldiers would nock their arrows and take aim, then they’d yell “LOOSE” to release the arrows in one big salvo.
Yeah I believe this as well, since a coordinated firing of arrows would be more effective, and because still today military commands largely consist of a prepatory phase and an executing phrase.
Like
"Company… ATTENTION"
"EEEEEYEEEEES… RIGHT.
“Preseeeent… ARMS”
etc
So it’d make sense. The commander just basically gives the tempo, but the commander knows what it feels like to do it, so you don’t get shit like “draw”… [extender pieces of dramatic faces and dialogue which symbolises a loaded gun held to someones face] and then “loose” /relax, because drawing a war bow takes some serious fucking muscle. So the “draw, loose”, would almost be in the same breath. Almost. But one breath apart. But so the voice synchronises them all. Just like it does with steps in modern militaries.
One still needs a person besides the form goin “left, left, left right left” to achieve the uniformity. Well from a well experienced group, less so, but you still need the starting “company… march” command to sync the starting step at least.
You wouldn’t do that because why would you need it to be all at the same time? This is musket logic being applied to bows. Pulling a warbow isn’t something anyone can do. People who did that trained all their lives for it. They literally had a different bone structure and musculature because of it. You don’t get people to wait with a shitload of pounds of force trying to wriggle out and launch an extremely heavy arrow. Hollywood bows are shitty props with loose strings that resemble a child’s toy more than an actual bow.
Where did you hear this? There’s so little information on archers through history.
i usually complain to the wife when horrible tactics are used in medieval battles.
like… why is everyone always doing a full frontal assault, have the wrong weapons, not use fire appropriately, never flank, use cavalry inappropriately…
miltary tactics in movies is usually abhorrent.
I loved the battle of Winterfell, where everyone took up defensive positions OUTSIDE THE CASTLE WALLS.
That battle caused a mass-extinction event among the Total War community.
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Frontal cavalry charge without any follow up
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Siege engines positioned outside the fortifications against a mobile enemy
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Projectile forces unsupported outside the fortifications
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Melee infantry inside the castle, watching and picking their noses
My wife told me to shut up multiple times during that episode as I was screeching like a monkey. The wrong side won that battle that night.
I was so mad about those catapults. I’m still mad. That battle was just completely unforgivable.
It’s not like they didn’t HAVE consultants on retainer for this series already. Give me a break!
I need to go lie down now.
i really want to like total war, but it just isnt for me :(
i do play a lot of tactics and strategy games tho <3
Given the fact that any language used in such a movie is going to be wildly unlike the language spoken in the time and place of the movie, I think that’s a mild anachronism
Old English / Norman French etc would be practically incomprehensible to anybody.
There was an interesting TV show called Barbarians a few years ago where all the Romans spoke Latin but with Italian accents but they had the Germanic barbarians speaking modern German. Not sure if that would please anybody.
