Depicting Zionists as lizards isn’t great.
Oh look, someone who thinks all Jews are Zionists and all Zionists are Jewish! I honestly thought they were extinct.
That’s not the case at all, you can look at my post history if you want to know the things I think.
It’s just you generally want to avoid antisemitic tropes when you’re talking about Zionists because antisemites say Zionist when they mean Jew.
Are you saying I can’t use the word Zionist because some Nazi scum uses it too?
yes exactly - don’t use an anti-Semitic trope when criticizing Zionism, lest you be confused for an anti-Semite; this weakens the meme significantly and for no good reason (other than maybe to pick up support from conspiracy nuts and right-wingers by using a dog-whistle while still being palatable to people who don’t see the dog-whistle, but this is a bug rather than a feature in my book)
Hmmmmm, would this be a bad time to say Native Americans be like?
Try it and let us know how it works for you. Be sure to say it to their face in real life. 150 years is like 4 generations, that was after a sequence of attempted genocides, and then there was another two generations of trying to whitify them (fun fact, football has lots of rules because Yale attendees were soft racist little bitches who need participation trophies even 100 years ago). So yeah, let’s see what happens.
For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me.
(Exodus 20:5, NKJV)
The cruel reality is that humans kill and steal from each other in competition for resources and security. Doesn’t matter if it’s a bullet to the head or a dishonored agreemen. Land belongs to nobody, and whoever shows up and beats the fuck out of whoever’s there now “owns” it. It is very hard for people to look at several hundred K of years of human history and realize it’s always been this way and never will change.
An appropriate response would be that Native Americans are still being oppressed, marginalized, having agreements violated, to this day, that they’re rightly due actual reparations and land back on that basis, but that the statute of limitations for these kind of claims, if you’re trying to devise some kind of universal ethical system to deal with them, may extend 100, 200, 300 years, for various types of claims, but not 2,000. And the population dynamics and methods of displacement and so on are not the same at all either, which have critical implications on who they would expect reparations from. The Palestinian people did not displace the ancient Jewish population - genetically it’s been shown that they’re the descendants of that population, religious identity notwithstanding. The Romans and other groups instigated that displacement. The Jewish groups in the diaspora are not solely descendants of that population either, they’ve intermingled with other populations, such as in Eastern Europe. Native Americans on the other hand have a direct claim against the people still occupying the land they inhabited, and I’d say have remained a more distinct group today, if you want to deal with the question of ethnic homogeneity (which is of questionable importance in the first place).
Picture some scenario where you were going to have some kind of hypothetical international lawsuit, assuming all things were on the table in terms of what you could dedicate for reparations, and that you’re just slapping reparations onto different ethnic groups for their historic grievances. Who would the Jewish people as a whole be looking for reparations from first? The Post-WWII migration was spurred by Nazi Germany. They were alienated of their property in Europe. Germany pays some marginal form of reparations today, but for some reason the question of their compensation has been answered by depriving a completely unrelated people of their rights. What cause of action do the Jewish people have against Palestinians? None. The Palestinians today have a cause of actions against the subset of Jewish people who participated in their ethnic cleansing and genocide. The situation is not comparable to that of European settlers vs. Native Americans at all, unless you invert it to say, the Native Americans have a cause of action against European settlers for ethnic cleansing and genocide. What you are doing is inverting it into some hypothetical situation where Native Americans have performed ethnic cleansing and genocide against white people, which they have not, not in any meaningful sense. The way you have to understand these questions is that one group has been put into a lesser position of wealth and privilege than another, and that attempts to deal out justice would have to resolve that imbalance, but only to the extent that it’s reasonable and just.
What reparations are owed to the Indigenous people of the Vietnamese highlands, perpetrated against them for centuries against the other Indigenous people of the Vietnam lowlands?
So all white people in america and africa should fuck off back to europe?
So, listen, I’m not making a case for all of them, but…
Seriously though white people fucked stuff up for native americans and africans pretty hard, and just because it’s not discussed in the slightest and everyone (white people) pretend it’s not an issue, it doesn’t mean it’s not an issue. It’s less about white people though, and more about capital class that upholds the status quo, the by-product of which is the white supremacy - and that is very parrarel to the zionist claim.
I agree. But I think it might be time for humanity to get over this shit. We’ve been killing each other about stuff old people did years and years ago. Let’s move on and use that money and time to improve things for everybody, no matter where you live or what you look like.
Part of the problem is people acting like all that stuff is ancient history and not relevant anymore. Yet almost all violent problems around the world still are directly or indirectly caused by european colonialism that destroyed societies and meddling by so-called “western” states, who felt entitled to rule over everyone they defined as “uncivilized”. On top of that these “western” states still use their influence to enrich themselves on the backs of peoples of “third world” countries and calling it “global free trade” or “spreading democracy”. If all of that isn’t acknowledged and actively counteracted, humanity won’t ever get over this shit.
I suspect the real solution is somewhere between that and corporate land acknowledgements.
The problem is that this argument can really be made both ways. If someone said Israel shouldn’t exist because Palestinians used to live there before that, that’s just essentially the same argument.
But saying that Israel shouldn’t exist doesn’t mean that the Israelis have to leave
Okay hold on but what about the original Canaanites? Isn’t it their land?
Neither argument hold any merit and is an example of the tyranny of history. Who cares what a bunch of dead assholes thought was theirs? The people who live there (not the politicians who pretend to represent their interests) are the only people that have any legitimate claim to authority on what should be done about the region.
It is especially meritless to equate people who claim the land based on other people sharing their religion having lived there a thousand years ago, with people whose grandparents got kicked out of their houses and who’ve had to live in an open air prison ever since while being subjected to regular attempts at ethnic cleansing.
In my world understanding colonialism was never good, but anything after ww2 is just invalid. There needs to be some cut off date where we say “at this point everyone knew and we had international laws against genocide” after which it just becomes invalid and any land claimed afterwards is not recognized or supported.
Israel was definitely too late to the colonial party and kinda should be considered illegitimate.
Israel as a state or the Israeli people? Because most of the jewish immigration to Palestine happened before 1945
No it didn’t. Most of the Jews came after the Palestine nakba/massacre which made Jews feel unsafe in the middle east (jeez I wonder why, but also not their fault.) the Jews who came before the independence were all European terrorist who built armed settlements and militas Far away from Palestinans and Palestinan Jews as they didn’t support them.
Let’s read it charitably. Maybe they mean more middle eastern Jews moved to Palestine in the last 6000 years than did europeans in the last 50.
A little convenient that the cutoff date is after Europeans divided the world for themselves.
Ofcourse they are, but if you go back to times where colonialism was the norm and in no way internationally frowned upon, then not a single current day country would be legitimate. So it kinda makes sense to set the cut off at a point where colonialism was at an all time low, because if you dont then all you get is world war.
Saw an excellent video from some Al Jazeera offshoot yesterday. The guy was explaining the concept that Europeans actually tended to put in minority populations in charge that were sympathetic to their interests - Alawites in Syria, the Hashemite monarchy in Jordan, European Zionists in Palestine - and that the borders were essentially designed for colonial administration instead of representing existing groups.
