-14 points

A woman is a person that adheres to gender roles assigned to them by society. These gender roles are typically attributed but not limited to the female sex.

Simple.

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14 points

A woman is whatever they fucking want to be.

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2 points

No, no they’re not. Genders exist. They haven’t disappeared. They also have meaning, words haven’t lost meaning all of the sudden because of inclusivity.

It’s idiotic statements like this that continue to fuel Anti trans rhetoric because obviously you yourself can’t even define what the word means.

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4 points

No one decides what gender they are. That’s like the entire thing with trans people. You think a trans person getting death threats wouldn’t love to be able to identify as their AGAB?

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2 points

You think a trans person getting death threats wouldn’t love to be able to identify as their AGAB?

No… That person wouldn’t be me, they’d be someone else…

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3 points

And even biological sex is a bimodal spectrum. People always ignore the existence of intersex people, but I believe it occurs at a higher number per 100k people than trans. I could be misremembering.

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-1 points

Intersex people exist in the same capacity that people that have down syndrome exist.

People don’t go around going. Oh they’re fine. They’re just intersex. It’s considered generally a birth defect that brings with it a lifetime of medical issues that otherwise would not exist.

It’s perfectly fine to accept them for who they are or even who they want to be, but has absolutely nothing to do with the idiotic question that anti-trans people pose such as “what is a woman”.

In the same sense that people don’t say, what is a human being in reference to down syndrome.

What bothers me is that even talking about this such as my original definition gets me downvoted because I don’t immediately agree or accept the prepositions in this post.

I have no obligation to blindly accept anything!

And it’s 1.7% of births in the world which is quite a high number considering.

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0 points
*

you see that 1.7% figure a lot, but it counts conditions which do not cause sex amibiguity, including a full 1.5% of late onset congenital adrenal hyperplasia which is not diagnosed at birth

https://ihra.org.au/16601/intersex-numbers/

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7 points

Idk who is that, and probably is a moron.

But it is a genuinely good question: “what’s a woman?” “what’s a man?” “what’s gender?”

Not an easy question, with not universally accepted answer.

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19 points

Outside of a philosophy discussion, it’s not a genuinely good question because it is irrelevant to our daily lives. In any way that matters to society, a woman is a person who says they are a woman. It’s that complicated.

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0 points
Removed by mod
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3 points

What is an adult human with both sets of genitalia? They exist.

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4 points

Sure, the anatomical features we use to categorise people into genders have always existed, but the categories themselves are made up and there’s a rather large amount of overlap between them. The more strictly someone attempts to enforce a given set of criteria as the basis for this categorisation, the less practical utility their definition tends to have in terms of everyday use.

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11 points

“Is irrelevant” and “should be irrelevant” are two different things. Fighting by saying the issues are not there—regardless of your actual opinion—has rarely, if ever, worked. It’s the same as the “I don’t see color” argument.

Also, why would we exclude philosophical discussion? The point is to make you think. I also don’t know who this particular person is in the OP, but the question itself has no bias. Maybe this highlights our philosophical differences, but I firmly believe that understanding a system is the most crucial step to revolutionizing it.

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-5 points

Would you say skin color is relevant in our daily lives just because some people think it is?

I also said nothing about excluding philosophy discussions. Please do not put words in my mouth.

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3 points
*

I don’t think it is that simple.

Women are treated different that men in many societies. In my country there are multiple laws that apply different to a person if it is a woman or a man.

If we are making legislative differentiation because those words, we ought to have them well defined and understand what we are meaning and why we say that a women gets X law applied that a man gets not.

If it is irrelevant it should be, at least, legislatively irrelevant. If it’s meaningful we should be clear on what we are defining by woman (or any other gender that gets particular legislation applied for all that matters).

That without talking about the social importance of being a gendered society. I don’t know any single society that is not gendered. Once again, if it is irrelevant then we should aim for genderless society. If it is relevant we should know and agree on what it is to be one gender or other.

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1 point

Why do you think such legislation is necessary? In fact, what legislation are you talking about that requires gender to be taken into account?

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5 points

If the question is so irrelevant, why do you even try to answer it in the same comment? Not only answering it, but also making it a fact. As if your opinion is the only one that matters and suddenly it’s irrelevant when there’s a different opinion.

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3 points

My opinion is not the only one that matters. I’m not sure where you got that impression unless you think people should automatically agree with you for no reason other than you want them to when they do not.

I base my opinion on my observations on how the world works. I could be wrong, so feel free explain to me how it negatively affects in our society in any significant way if you don’t define a woman as someone who calls themselves a woman.

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5 points

So long as society feels it necessary to provide protections for women, the distinction has real consequences. Drawing a line anywhere is a tradeoff between inclusivity and effectiveness.

Taking the party line “high ground” stance of either conclusive self-determination or dodging the question entirely is why this question is so effective.

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6 points

I’m sorry, is “conclusive self-determination” the wrong answer? Why?

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5 points

Assuming good faith on the part of those involved, I don’t see how inclusivity comes at the cost of effectiveness. Would you care to elaborate?

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2 points

And your solution is what?

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-6 points

Man xy, woman xx.

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4 points
*

Nah. That’s just sex.

But there’s been long proved that what we call gender is not 100% defined by sex.

For instance, our traditional gendered bathrooms. The concept does not work if we just take sex into account. As the reasons we have for segregating bathrooms in genders does just not work if people have a different presentation, external sexual characteristics or behavior, that it is traditionally assumed for one sex or the other.

To put intro crude words. Women that would like to have a women exclusive bathroom would really not be happy if someone walks into that externally looks and behaves, and even have the sexual characteristics of what they perceive as a man. It would not matter if that person would have XX instead of XY.

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2 points

That’s the extreme minority. To keep things simple let’s just say xx one bathroom and xy the other. That encompasses 99.9% of bathroom usage. For the cases you are talking about I’m sure that person can figure out what bathroom to use for themselves and explain it to anyone that asks.

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4 points

Biology isn’t that simple. A person can have one fewer sex chromosome, monosomy, one extra, trisomy, and many extra, polysomy. In fact it’s starting to show that a significant minority of people have trisomy 47 (the name for having one extra sex chromosome) but live perfectly normal lives because those extra genes are suppressed. You could have an extra x chromosome and never know it, does that exclude you from being a man or a woman? Which brings up the topic of gene expression and epigenetics which is even more complicated. If you’re looking at science to give you a certainty about sex and gender you’re in for a long search.

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0 points

That’s the extreme minority. To keep things simple let’s just say xx one bathroom and xy the other. That encompasses 99.9% of bathroom usage. For the cases you are talking about I’m sure that person can figure out what bathroom to use for themselves and explain it to anyone that asks.

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21 points

Honestly I think, as a cis man, cis people are probably very bad at answering the question.

humans tend ignore “harmony”. When you walk through the field, do you look each blade of grass or at the cow? Do you feel “non-pain”? How could you possibly explain someone pain that doesn’t know pain? Do you remember the last time, you sat next to your friend watching a show on tv, in the same detail, you remember the conflict/discussion that you had with them?

Generally we will remember and pay attention to the things that are “wrong”.

If your gender is right for you, why would you pay attention? What would you even pay attention to?

If it is wrong for you, you feel the “pain”, see the cow and remember the conflict.

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1 point

Is it a good question though? Even if we set aside the fact that it’s a loaded question, what are we going to do with the information?

It has a similar character to the question ‘what is a race?’. Information that people look a certain way is not particularly useful, on the other hand we feel it viscerally. If we don’t stop to think we end up making unhelpful judgements.

Race, gender, nation states, money, the past and future, these are just concepts and if we confine ourselves to the domain of concepts we run the risk of mistaking them for our actual experience, out in the world. We stop listening and start assuming that our internal narrative is infallible, because it is.

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3 points
*

I agree to an extend.

I would love to live in a word where all of that does not matter.

But for instance, imagine if we stop taking race into account in the USA (not American but I’m soaked in American culture). How would people know and being able to prove that some race is being discriminated against if the people does not have a definition on some people being part of one or other race.

I despise racial classification. Seems wrong, it works wrong as races are all mixed. But it can work against racism.

For instance, in my country, racial classification is ilegal. There cannot exist any registry on anyones race whatsoever. So black people here does not have statistical data to prove they are being discriminated against. They have a harder time fighting against racism somehow because their race is not allow to be recorded anywhere.

So I don’t really know if, same as gender, I want to know people’s race or not. Feels wrong, but also useful to fight against discrimination.

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2 points

Very interesting and I would not have expected that outcome. In some ways the actions of avowed racists is easier to deal with. If our cards are on the table we can at least have a discussion. The racism that dwells in people and institutions who never admit it is incredibly corrosive.

Reading historical texts about eras where the concept of race didn’t exist as we know it today is refreshing. I suppose they had other problems but the modern conception of race feels like a political tool and completely artificial. So too with gender, it’s encouraging to see kids abandoning those outdated notions.

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1 point

When does the answer actually matter? Maybe in situations where sexual assault is a concern, like bathrooms, etc? In that case, just get rid of gender identity and distinguish based on if the individual has a penis or not.

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1 point

Why base it on the existence or nonexistence of a penis? How do you enforce that? You’re in a bathroom, ideally no one is seeing your genitals.

Just get rid of gendered bathrooms in the first place. A toilet doesn’t care what shape of butthole poops into it

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4 points
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I talked in other comments about the legislative implications. But here I would like to give a more personal one.

For instance, I would love to have the answer for myself. Because I have asked myself plenty of times “Am I a woman?”, and that leads to de subsequent question “What it means to be a Woman?”, “What I want to be is a Woman or is anything else?”. I know that only I can answer that question. But I want to know why I have to make that question to myself. Why society considers “being a Woman” something? Because that question didn’t came out of nowhere. It came because I, as a person who lives in a society with other people, see people who calls themselves man, woman or other things. And while trying to decide what I want to be, or what I already am, need to take what other people are into consideration.

Idk, if I’m explaining myself. I’ll give a dumb example: Maybe I want to be an Astronaut, but before becoming an Astronaut I need to know what an Astronaut is. Because Astronaut is a profession in our society, and it can be defined. In this context is easy, because I would love to be an Astronaut because I would love to go to space. But, if I love to be a Woman, why is it? What is the “going to space” of being a woman?

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The opposite of a man.

What is a man? A miserable pile of secrets.

Which makes a woman a joyous iota of public.

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5 points

But enough talk, have at you!

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122 points
*

I remember an old 4chan joke from, I think, over a decade ago. It’s an old memory so I hope I don’t butcher it:

A 4chan user found a genie. He was tired of getting no action, so he told the genie his 1st wish was the ability to turn on sight that would let him see everyone willing to sleep with him. “Your wish is granted”, replied the genie. “You can now close your eyes.”

In the modern version I’d make it one of these misogynist assholes.

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24 points

A decade ago is 2014 so you(probably) mean two decades ago

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18 points

It’s possible, I left 4chan a long time ago. I won’t pretend it was ever a great place, but at least there were moments of entertaining randomness. Damn I’m old.

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3 points

/b/ was never good.

except for MLP, that was peak

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31 points

🔥

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