People likely voted for not repealing the provision allowing involuntary servitude as a punishment for crime and not for keeping slavery.
Whoever thought combining those two things in one vote was a good idea is an idiot
No, it’s a form of punishment. It can be avoided by not committing crimes.
You should read literally anything about the US prison industry, mass incarceration, or war on drugs. The fact that America has the world’s largest prison population, that companies make money from this, and that the people who get imprisoned are largely non-white couldn’t possibly be related right?
Let me know if you change your position on that if you’re ever convicted and sentenced to prison for a crime you did not commit.
Maybe we should be treating people humanely regardless of their criminal record? They are in prison to become reformed citizens, not to be our slave laborers.
Nah, slavery is still slavery. Tons of US businesses are currently propped up by prisoner workers who they don’t have to pay practically anything, and who can’t walk off the job, and who can’t really complain too much, AND, conveniently, aren’t employed by that company so they can bypass labor laws like break times, safety regulations, and working hours.
You’re making the following statements, lmk if this is inaccurate:
-Involuntary servitude is not considered slavery, but rather a punishment.
-Involuntary servitude is OK as long as it’s used on prisoners (those who have been convicted of crimes).
Inference made: Constitutional protections and rights do NOT apply to those going against the rule of law.
Questions for you:
-If involuntary servitude isn’t considered slavery, then what would you consider slavery to be?
-Is this a form of punishment that helps to reform and correct those deemed currently unsuitable for society (without going into the meaninglessness of Orwellian naming conventions, they are called the “Department of Corrections”, aren’t they?)
-Do you think the rule of law always corresponds with ethical standards?
-I always like to ask myself the following: Who stands to benefit from allowing slaver- I mean, “involuntary servitude” to continue to be allowed? Who stands to benefit from all this cheap labor?
I’m curious as to your answers here.
You can be enslaved in the US for the crime of not having enough money to afford a place to live.
…what other slavery currently exists (legally) that this would have addressed? This isn’t combining two things. Barring slavery in any form includes punitive servitude. Calling them separate issues is like calling “we should fix this leak” a separate concern from “this pipe should not have any leaks”.
Calling them separate issues is like calling “we should fix this leak” a separate concern from “this pipe should not have any leaks”.
Yes, those are two different things that should be addressed separately.
One is emergency plumbing, the other is maintenance.
Looks like people voted no to slavery, but the question asked do you not support slavery.
The answer should have been (yes) I do not support slavery.
Instead (no) I do not support slavery.
I can image a good chunk of people got confused with the wording, and I myself am still confused reading it.
The link you supplied clears it all up. No way anyone could have misunderstood the vote, the ballot even outlines what yes and no mean in the context.
I think I now agree with what krashmo said in the thread below.
“Or maybe Americans are largely shitty people. Stop trying to excuse the behavior and accept it for what it is”
The part that was most surprising to me was this:
ARGUMENTS
PRO Proposition 6 ends slavery in California and upholds human rights and dignity for everyone. It replaces carceral involuntary servitude with voluntary work programs, has bipartisan support, and aligns with national efforts to reform the 13th Amendment. It will prioritize rehabilitation, lower recidivism, and improve public safety, resulting in taxpayer savings.
CON No argument against Proposition 6 was submitted.
No one came out in opposition? Not even the bureau of prisons, or the warden’s union‽‽ And it still didn’t pass?
Edit: I, and all my housemates claim to have, voted for this proposition, and actually all the propositions I had on my ballot in IB to pass. It’s truly disheartening to see that all the other props that mattered less than this one passed, and this one that literally seems to have no downsides is potentially failing.
For reference, the downsides of almost every single other proposition on the IB ballot would increase various taxes, and all of them passed. WTELF you stupid NIMBYS‽‽‽
Are you sure? It seems pretty straightforward to me. “This amendment would bar slavery and involuntary servitude.” It’s the first sentence.
I bet the wording on the ballot was different. Similar election results sites for my local ballot measures hasve greatly simplified the language the ballot had (which honestly is probably how ballot measures should be written)
Or maybe Americans are largely shitty people. Stop trying to excuse the behavior and accept it for what it is
You know, reading that today, and putting myself in the shoes of an overworked, everyday American, it seems the wording does leave something to be desired. I wonder how that vote would have turned out if the question were: “Do you support slavery as long as the person was convicted of a crime and is in prison?”
Oh go away, they did not vote for “slavery”. They voted to allow making convicted felons work as part of their sentence. It’s slavery in the same sense that working to buy food and pay rent is “slavery”. Metaphorically yes, but calling it slavery devalues the experiences of all the people who were kidnapped from their homes, brought here in chains on ships, and sold in a market.
Hey, would you look at that, chattel slavery isn’t the only type. That is amazing, no one could have guessed that until right now, after I looked it up. It is almost like it being called chattel slavery implies multiple forms of slavery. Wow, this is so new, and novel.
Yeah it’s a big world! Here’s another new thing for you - look up “Indentured servitude”. It’s where you are forced to work to pay off a debt or something, but it’s not “slavery” and nobody owns you. Kind of like in prison.
Look up the 13th amendment, and why they had to write in an exclusionary clause to it because, even people from a time of chattel slavery practice, knew this was slavery too, and not indentured servitude, which stayed legal for decades afterwards! The factors making it slavery are quite eloquently explained, namely that indentured servitude was a contract the indentured servant had to agree to! Isn’t that neat? It wasn’t legally forced on them! Wanna know something else cool? The fact that it is a contractual agreement is STILL the definition!
Yes, let’s read the 13th Amendment together: “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.”
Notice that two things are listed - slavery and involuntary servitude. I define convict labor as involuntary servitude. The 13th Amendment doesn’t back up either interpretation.
Just like uncle Tom, working in the house so he could make a living…as a slave. But hey, they fed and clothed him, so is it still slavery?
“Just like?” I dunno, was Tom in prison for committing crimes or did somebody just kidnap him or his ancestors and say okay you’re a slave now? If you’re going to ignore that difference this conversation is pointless.
The better question is, was he in prison due to unjust laws and unfair application of law due to the colour of his skin? Fuck it, they’re locked up, force to him work regardless.
Isn’t work in prisons usually a privilege? Is this something that is actually used? What happens when someone just doesn’t do what is asked of them?
Cool, thanks for the info. So, for everything except extreme cases where someone is going to be imprisoned until they die it is negatively impactful.
It hasn’t been called yet but I certainly didn’t have California votes to be a slave state on my 2024 bingo card.