Archive link: https://archive.ph/PgtUk
You can do almost anything with a website that you could do with an app. The only reason they are pushing the apps so hard is because they can collect a lot more data than a website can.
As Cory Doctorow put it, “An app is just a web-page wrapped in enough IP to make it a felony to add an ad-blocker to it.”
The cloud is many things, but most of all, it’s a trap. When software is delivered as a service, when your data and the programs you use to read and write it live on computers that you don’t control, your switching costs skyrocket. Think of Adobe, which no longer lets you buy programs at all, but instead insists that you run its software via the cloud. Adobe used the fact that you no longer own the tools you rely upon to cancel its Pantone color-matching license. One day, every Adobe customer in the world woke up to discover that the colors in their career-spanning file collections had all turned black, and would remain black until they paid an upcharge:
The cloud allows the companies whose products you rely on to alter the functioning and cost of those products unilaterally. Like mobile apps – which can’t be reverse-engineered and modified without risking legal liability – cloud apps are built for enshittification. They are designed to shift power away from users to software companies. An app is just a web-page wrapped in enough IP to make it a felony to add an ad-blocker to it. A cloud app is some Javascript wrapped in enough terms of service clickthroughs to make it a felony to restore old features that the company now wants to upcharge you for.
I legitimately want to scream sometimes as I feel the continual death of local computing and actual software, and it depresses me to no end how few businesses or users see it for what it is.
And it’s exactly this: a trap. A trap users people are racing into, and they have no idea, at all, how bad it’s going to get when the doors close behind them.
The rest of us are left with little recourse. Looking at the difference between Outlook and New Outlook is genuinely depressing because that’s the future we’re all being shepherded into against our will. I swear, in like 10 years, Windows will mostly just be a kiosk for Edge.
I’m with you 100% up to the “little recourse,” I think there’s more options now than there have ever been. Open source (including linux and self hosting) are about the only tech-future things I’m genuinely excited about.
There’s still a learning curve and progress to be made, for sure. However, anecdotally, I’ve seen programming and hosting become vastly more accessible in the last 15 years. Also, not everyone needs to self host, people just need to know someone who is willing and able to set them up.
Not saying it’s a guarantee, but it’s a possible way out, at least. And being here on lemmy, reading and writing about these issues is a good sign there’s movement in the right direction.
I agree with you on everything, other than
I legitimately want to scream sometimes as I feel the continual death of local computing and actual software
…it seems to me that it’s never been better, there’s free software for everything, osm data for mapping, it’s just that our expectations have shifted.
This is the main reason why I seldom install anyone’s “app”.
Most of these apps aren’t true apps anyway, they’re just customized browsers that lead you to a website and are free to collect as much data from you and your phone as they want.
I’ll go on your website first if I have to and 9 / 10 I get what I want. Besides, I’ll only ever visit the service once or twice so I don’t need to install a permanent app on my phone for that.
Also desktop mode to circumvent those phone detection systems and trying to force an app.
I wish. Every fucking bank has their own shitty app for 2FA instead of just using standardized and proven TOTP, no way around that.
Same about school apps the article mentioned since it’s connecting to their (one of many) proprietary system, no website for that.
And recently got into the home automation rabbit hole. Lots of devices that require their fucking app, sometimes with mandatory cloud account, just to connect! And people in reviews even praise how easy it is, it’s infuriating! I don’t need light bulbs connecting to the internet, thank you very much.
Ha, sucker, you think your non-Internet-connected lightbulbs make you safe? My Internet-connected lightbulbs have sent my online-car to wardrive your neighbourhood and sniff your Zigbee network!
…if you see my car please tell it to come back to me, I need to go to the shops…
Joke’s on you - I can’t even reach my Zigbee devices in the next room, your car won’t have a chance from the street. That’ll make it easier to convince it to come back home though.
I get emails from school, with a link that opens a 3rd party app, which only displays a link that opens in the default browser. I’ve asked the school to just send me direct links to the announcements, but they say they can’t. The site doesn’t require authentication, but the URLs have UUIDs so I can’t just guess what the link would be. The app is quite literally just a data exfiltration layer that does everything it can to make sure you can’t bypass it. Good luck getting any other parents to give a shit though.
All of the banks I’ve used in the past utilize email or SMS for 2FA, which isn’t the must secure, but doesn’t require an app.
I returned a bunch of smart outlets I got at Home Depot after I got fed up with waiting for the app to launch just to turn a light on or off.
I also don’t want to have to talk to it, so switching to Home Assistant with Zigbee button remotes has made my experience so much better. And on the plus side, everything still works when the power or Internet goes out because I’ve got it on battery backup.
I also don’t want to have to talk to it, so switching to Home Assistant with Zigbee
That’s what started it all for me. I have some Hue lights for TV backlighting and started looking for alternatives when Philipps first threatened making their cloud account mandatory.
Threw out the bridge, works like a charm and I have been buying new devices and return everything I cannot setup locally but it’s annoying because they don’t always tell about their crappy app and cloud accounts on the product info.
The number I remember seeing was that on average, app users are seven times more profitable than web users. Sorry, no citation.
I suspect there’s some selection bias in that regular/loyal users of a particular product or service are more likely to install the app, but it also affords the company greater access to send notifications and collect data. On the rare occasion that I install some random company’s app for a specific benefit, I remove it when I’m done.
Around here, Target (department store chain) will let you order stuff through their app and pick it up in the store parking lot. If you order through the web you have to wait around inside the store to get it. I still won’t install the app but this issue annoys me.
And then there’s guys like me. I don’t announce when I’m coming. I grab the items myself, and then I pay in cash. Nonsequential bills. I’m like a ninja! I can’t be traced! Shashasha!!! Pocket sand!
Then on the way home, if I see someone following me home, I make 3 left turns. If they’re STILL following me? I turn around, and I shoot them…a dirty look!
What? I’m not a psychopath. I just don’t like being followed.
I recently ordered something from Walmart (I try to avoid it, but I could not find this one thing elsewhere) and you get a link in your email to notify them when you’re in the pickup bay. The link goes to their app. I tried going to the website through Chrome, to no avail. It kept sending me to try to download the app. I did not. I don’t shop there often enough to justify it. I drove to the pickup bay and lo and behold, the sign had a phone number you could call; a very pleasant person answered, asked my name, and I had my order in a few minutes.
I do have a couple grocery store apps for 2 reasons: 1 - there are some extremely low prices that you can only get by “clipping a coupon” within the app, and 2 - loyalty points do turn into cash back.
Safeway (a west coast grocery chain) has implemented it in the worst way possible, though. They had a physical loyalty card which you scanned at checkout/self checkout, which let you access lower prices. But now they have even lower prices only through the app. The app, however, 1 - does not let you enter your old loyalty card number, combine points and cleanly separate from the old method and 2 - you cannot use the damn thing at self checkout. You have to have a checkout clerk scan your barcode in the app, which is insane. I’m just glad Safeway is not my main grocery, because if it were I would have to change to some other grocery.
I was thinking about that a while back. There’s got to be some sort of upper limit to collecting data being useful. I mean at some point it becomes more economical to just buy the data from one other thousands of companies data mining phones rather then going to all the trouble of building and maintaining your own data mining app.
This is almost completely true, but I would add the caveat that PWAs (progressive web apps) are not as easy to discover and less familiar to install as an app in an app/play store. It might also be because it’s in Apple and Google’s best interest to not streamline that. But it’s still an obstacle nevertheless.
My favorite part of the 30 day dumb phone challenge I did recently: I couldn’t install your crappy app even if I wanted to.
A little over halfway through the challenge, was paying for my order at a local eatery, and the cashier started plugging their new app and rewards points and digital coupons and shit. I was like “I’m gonna stop you right there: flip phone.” and pulled it out of my pocket and brandished it like I was the sheriff of Luddite-ville.
Kinda like this, but “Flip phone!”
That’s what I used to do, but a good portion of the time they’d continue their spiel to try to change my mind. Have only had to brandish the dumb phone once, but so far it’s got a 100% shut down success rate.
I just tell them I don’t have a phone. Even if I’m still holding it in my hand. Most don’t want to engage. They likely figure they’re not payed enough for that.
That’s what I used to do, but a good portion of the time they’d continue their spiel to try to change my mind.
Where are you shopping where you are routinely encountering cashier’s that are this pushy about the apps? The overwhelming majority of cash register attendance are underpaid employees that are just trying to get you through the line. They said the line because they have to say the line, but most have no intention of really trying to sell you on it.
Once upon A time, these things were just rewards programs, with the key ring bullshit. Were you signing up for each and every one of them too?
Yeah…try that in CVS.
“No no, I’d rather NOT have a reciept that’s 3 miles long, because I bought a candy bar…”
But we already cut down 3 trees just for you!
“No.”
"Oh, you’re taking this irrelevant slip of paper! We have armed guards to make sure you do! There is a world war 2 tank outside that will crush you, and blow up your car! I know it’s not really a war worthy tank, and in that sense it’s obsolete, but it can still more than handle your toyota geo. Now then…take…the…reciept!
NEVER!!!
GUARDS!!!
And then a Kill Bill-esque fight scene breaks out. You know, like when she fought the crazy 88s. Except instead of a group of ninjas headed by a 14 year old Japanese girl, it’s a group of swat team members headed by a 17 year old CVS register worker wearing a red CVS vest that he uses as a choking hazard on you in the fight.
Your goal is to dodge bullets, matrix style, while disarming one guard to shoot the rest of the guards dead, so you can fight this CVS employee one on one, as wave after wave of reinforcements constantly change the dynamic of the battle.
Finally, after defeating all the guards, you return to your car to return home, and as you make your turn onto the main road, thats when you see it. A world war 2 era tank firing mortors at you, as you’re forced to weave all over the road. Other cars exploding, you’re all over the road, a helicopter has joined the chase. Suddenly the helicopter is firing air to surface missles, and as you dodge them, they blow up the tank.
The helicopter then lands right in front of you on the highway. As you prepare for the final battle, the door opens it’s your wife. You both embrace, and take off in the helicopter. Forever on the lamb. Always running from the threat of CVS employees that can strike at any time.
What on earth are you people talking about?
I go to CVS all the time for random things, I’ve never once been pushed to use an app, nor have I ever encountered anyone that is legitimately pushing you to do anything after a simple no.
I was like “I’m gonna stop you right there: flip phone.” and pulled it out of my pocket and brandished it like I was the sheriff of Luddite-ville.
I…is the implication you would have no other choice but to install their app if you didn’t have a flip phone?
I’m baffled by these comments. Who the hell is actually listening to these people and installing apps on their phone just because a cashier mentioned it?
TBH I dont use an app for anything that can be done in the browser, especially when mobile websites ask me tl get their app.
then there are companies like yelp who disable their mobile site and make their desktop site as shitty as possible on mobile to force you to the app.
What’s that other shitty company that constantly pesters you to download the app every time you average the site? Teddit?
I recently re-downloaded the Michaels app while I was in the Michaels checkout line just so I could apply a $5 coupon that the register failed to read from the app anyway.
There’s your problem right there.
Does this author not understand how dumb this makes him look? You downloaded an entire app, in the checkout line, for a $5 coupon on something you were likely overcharged for in the first place?
Even when you’re lacking in a store-specific app, your apps will let you pay by app. You just need to figure out (or remember, if you ever knew) whether your gardener or your hair salon takes Venmo, Cash App, PayPal, or one of the new bank-provided services such as Zelle and Paze.
If only there was a universal form of payment that you could keep in your pocket and pull out to use anytime with very minimal interaction. Maybe a card or something.
Apps are all around us now. McDonald’s has an app. Dunkin’ has an app.
Why are you using them?
Every chain restaurant has an app. Every food-delivery service too: Grubhub, Uber Eats, DoorDash, Chowbus.
Why are you using all of them??
Every supermarket and big-box store. I currently have 139 apps on my phone. These include: Menards, Home Depot, Lowe’s, Joann Fabric, Dierbergs, Target, IKEA, Walmart, Whole Foods
Why the fucking hell do you need any of these?!
This is literally the 2024 equivalent of your mother having a dozen toolbars in Internet Explorer because she kept clicking on coupons.
Just go to the place, pull out your credit card, pay the cashier, and leave. How the hell does any functioning adult blame the technology when they have this little self control?
People who are proud of getting a good deal via an app break my heart. Most folks I know like that are not strapped for cash. They just like the feeling of getting a bargain. They don’t consider that the prices are artificially inflated. They don’t need the sale item. And in the long run they’ll probably end up paying more when the stores know their purchasing habits and have A/B tested them enough to know how to provide as little as possible while charging as much as a customer can stomach.
If a coupon requires an app, I don’t by that item. Especially when it comes to groceries. When it comes to store cards, most let you use a phone number instead of scanning the card. So plug in a random number at checkout. You can often get a hit on the first try. Then pay in cash. Dirty up someone else’s data and give these stores nothing on you. Seriously, if people keep giving in, it’s guaranteed to get worse. First the store card, then the app, what’s next?
Most folks I know like that are not strapped for cash.
Whoa. What group do you run in? Literally everyone I talk to on a daily basis is.
I actually just thought through an average day, and the people I talk to regularly. I’ve had conversations with each and every one of them over the past few months about how we’ve had to make major changes to our lifestyles in one way or another because the money is going out faster than it’s coming in. We’re all solidly middle-class, for whatever that means anymore.
So what circles are you in where not everyone is looking for every possible discount they can get? Saving $5 on groceries means I can afford another gallon and a half of gas. I can’t afford to be principled about privacy when those are the stakes. But it doesn’t mean I have to like it.
I think age / location / profession have a lot to do with what socioeconomic circles people run in.
Not to mention luck of the draw.
My circle of friends are also not strapped for cash. I’m confused as to how that’s so baffling to you. We’re very much NOT upper class.
People who are proud of getting a good deal via an app break my heart. Most folks I know like that are not strapped for cash. They just like the feeling of getting a bargain. They don’t consider that the prices are artificially inflated.
Thats why Prime Day is such a big deal.
People think they are getting awesome deals cause its 50% off, are not going and checking price trackers to see the item had a HUGE price spike a week before Prime Day.
But they think they got 50% off and that gives them that massive dopamine rush, and that encourages more spending.
The Lowe’s app is actually really handy. You can look up any item and it will tell you the exact isle and bay it’s in for your store. No more wandering around or hunting for an employee to ask. It’s the only store app I actually keep on my phone.
Why the fucking hell do you need any of these?!
Yup, I have none of them, and I still get a pretty good deal.
Most of my spending is at Costco, and they send me a paper ad once/month, which I’ll go through and add relevant stuff to my list (in a separate app). But even if I don’t get a discount, their prices are still better than most (e.g. eggs are normally $2.50 or so per dozen, whereas the grocery sells them for $4+). If I’m going to spend more than normal, I’ll check a few sites before going out (or ordering online), and sometimes I’ll ask the store clerk to price match to avoid multiple stops. The one place I have an app for is on my old phone, and it’s for Target because they actually have decent sales sometimes. I don’t check very often, but I will when I’m going to go buy a bunch of gifts for birthdays or holidays or whatever (and again, I’ll check multiple sites first), and I use the 5% off w/ the Target debit card.
I literally don’t bother with any loyalty programs. My grocery store’s loyalty program isn’t needed for discounts, it’s only for a discount on gas at some gas station I don’t go to (and isn’t even next to the store). There’s another with a better loyalty program (they have their own gas stations), but they’re further away and it would cost me more in gas to go there than I’d save.
So if we need something, we’ll look for coupons or whatever before setting out, we don’t use an app or loyalty program. I’m pretty sure we end up wasting a lot less money this way.
I stopped reading the article after it just became a list of apps. Felt like a thinly veiled ad, and if not, annoying af.
If the apps wouldn’t be slow React Native or whatever “multiplatform framework” crapware, then I’d actually say that well designed, native Swift UI (iOS) or Material (Android) apps can enhance the user experience for a lot of services that are otherwise offered via website. Native integrations with shortcuts, widgets, fully supporting accessibility features of the OS etc.
The problem is most apps are just low-effort web app conversions.
The problem is most apps are just low-effort web app conversions.
If only that. Web apps are relatively well sandboxed. Most dedicated apps (that should be websites) are designed to harvest as much data as they can and spam you with notifications/ads.
Hell I use my garden diary selfhosted service via a wepapp (hortusfox).
Just put a direct link on my homescreen. With the included favicon it almost looks like a native app.
