What’s the difference here between teaching the bible and teaching history? I recall getting through Hon and AP US History and Civics with and understanding of protestantism conflicts, Calvinism, and Deism. The law and mandate is bullshit, but what is the actual curriculum requirements. If you are teaching the historical content of the Bible that means you can also teach about atheists that took issue with it. Is there a lot of room for malicious compliance?
The existence of the Bible is historical fact and artifact. There is historical merit in studying the various religious beliefs of historical peoples that factored into their values and thinking. Protestantism is factually a thing. Different colonies and denominational belief is a thing and a topic in American history. What made Quakers Quakers and how did that impact the Pennsylvania.
There’s a difference between teaching the bible, teaching theology, and teaching histories of religion. There’s definitely questions of what we are teaching and what is appropriate in public primary and secondary schools and in what subject, but I don’t think there is anything in and of itself bad if the historical religious beliefs and impact on historical civic life are discussed.
Malicious compliance is still compliance. If you concede this hill, the next one will be a requirement to teach the Bible as historical truth. And then it will be to prevent teaching actual science.
Well I think the Unions and government need to push back on this (the AG already is). I 100% believe that this should be reveresed. But reading the article it states that losing your teaching license is possible punishment. It’s really easy to be high and mighty when it’s not your livelihood and job on the line. If you need to wait it out while the courts settle it what do teachers need to do to protect their jobs, stay in compliance, and avoid retaliation until this gets settled? How many teachers already are in compliance just by teaching regular US history curriculum that says “yeah, protestants read the bible and disputes on interpretation of the bible with catholics is part of the history of America.” I think it’s important to note that the Gutenberg press published the first printed bible. With the increase of education and literacy lay people no longer had to get teachings directly from the literate Orthodoxy. This allowed to different interpretation and rise of different religions which led to conflict, etc…
Oh I completely agree with you, and I don’t begrudge anyone who’s willing to do what they have to do to keep their jobs. My point is just that fascists don’t play fair. They won’t put their hands on their hips and smirk disapprovingly at malicious compliance. They will keep stepping on your neck until you do exactly what they want without question. You know that when they say the Bible, they of course mean their interpretation of their version of a Bible of their choosing. They aren’t going to permit debate on the topic.
when the federal government makes everything a state’s rights issue we get fifty states doing whatever the hell they want
obvious at this point Biden has either lost the reins or is intentionally letting the nation slip
very coincidental that we lost women’s rights and we have a huge surge of religious oppression at the same time a prolife religious right leaning conservative democrat gets at the helm
I don’t know that there is much Biden can do. The Federal government can’t just tell a state no, they have to take them to court and prove that they are violating federal law. And we now have gerrymandered-to-hell legislatures violating federal law right and left and there’s only so much time and so many resources.
I’m not going to tout Biden as the greatest president ever or anything, but I can’t blame him for this. He’s not responsible for putting Ryan Walters in his position and he doesn’t have the power to get rid of him.
Biden has been a career politician longer than been alive or you perhaps
definitely blame him and all Democrats and Republicans
don’t wake up one day and magically become progressive
he always has been right leaning and his party could have been at least shouting to the rooftops about the injustices but instead just deafening silence
did he even mention this at the debates last night? how about cop city? or anything relevant?
Good Ol’ Silent Joe
This news story broke yesterday and it’s the weekend. Give him a few minutes before you denounce him for what he hasn’t done.
We have such a ridiculous instant gratification culture.
… religious right leaning conservative democrat …
Um, no. Biden is pretty solidly in the center, his record is a mix of left and right positions, and his positions have evolved as he’s aged. I do believe he’s religious, but he is not trying to force his religious beliefs on us like some states are currently doing with the 10 commandments bullshit.
That kind of attitude lingers dangerously close to the everything-is-a-conspiracy-by-the-shadowy-cabal line of reasoning. Biden’s a Catholic, but it’s certainly not “obvious” that he’s “intentionally letting the nation slip”. You can scroll down barely a page on whitehouse.gov and watch the president commit to restoring the standard of Roe v Wade. It’s under the statements in favor of Pride, committing to combating gun deaths, lowering housing costs, and protecting pensions. Joe Biden’s executive orders have been the most progressive executive action since Roosevelt.
Here’s something a lot of non-religious folks might not know: the evangelical right? They hate Catholics. The MAGAs hate them ideologically, but the ones running the show hate them because the Catholic Church is their competition when it comes to running private schools and otherwise lucrative community support institutions. Biden is absolutely not on their side, theologically or otherwise.
his idea of committing is asking for donations and promising to look into that once the money hits a certain amount
living in the US either way feels like living in a Church fucking awful
I live in Louisiana. It’s not Joe Biden who is making this shit happen. It’s Jeff Landry and the rubber stamp legislature that are making the place into a little Iranian theocracy.
the Catholic Church is their competition when it comes to running private schools and otherwise lucrative community support institutions
I generally agree with what you’ve written, but I think you’re assuming more pragmatism here than is actually present. Bitter hostility between Protestants and Catholics is as old as Protestantism (and much older than the institutions you mention).
Also, as a side note, there are plenty of Catholic Republicans. (37% vs 44% that identify as Democrats, according to Pew.)
You’re going to blame Biden for the stance of conservatives? This is totally wrong. Right wing religious conservatives have been wanting to bring christianity back into schools for over 50 years and they have finally forced it to happen through state laws. Republicans want this and are making it happen.
After reading the rest of your comments, you could’ve just saved a lot of time by saying you don’t know how the government works. And if anyone else happens to read this and think, “Hey that’s a good point,” no, it isn’t. It’s ignorant at best, actively malicious at worst. Sounds a whole lot like many of the comments trying to get people not to vote.
The funny thing is that a basic understanding of the Bible is actually important for making sense of American history - the people making that history were strongly influenced by the Bible and so unless you know at least the major “plot points”, their actions (and a lot of literature) won’t make much sense.
With that said, I don’t trust Oklahoma to teach about the Bible in a manner appropriate for historical analysis rather than religious dominance.
Not just American history, the Bible is the absolute cornerstone of our entire culture. As the one book that every household owned for much of recorded history, the amount of biblical references and reused stories is ridiculous.
I have absolutely no problem with the Bible being taught in schools as it’s an incredibly important document. I find it odd that it isn’t, because the separation of church and state shouldn’t prohibit the study of old books in any way.
I was talking about this with my wife who came from Taiwan at 16 and was sort of second hand exposed to Western culture. She said everything can’t be a bible story can it? I dug out a Bible off the shelf and flipped through, well you know David and Goliath, you know Samson, Jonah and the whale yeah these are classics right?
She says no, so I ask if she knows the story of Pinocchio or why her luggage was made by “Samsonite”. And the truck that we saw yesterday with the “G0L1ATH” license plate?
Yeah it’s everywhere
For a long period which roughly coincided with the founding of America, English-speaking people only learned to read using the Bible, and often that was the only book they ever used for anything so it became a sort of de facto dictionary and Guiness Book of World Records and all kinds of things that it was never meant to be, plus a lot of new things it was never meant to be, and of course the things it was always meant to be.
Mandatory firearms training in school would be more Constitutional than teaching the Bible though. For a very important reason. Akin to a “prime directive” if you will. If you want kids to study it as an elective then fine, allow that, but forcing it on kids is wrong, wrong wrong.
Forcing it as a belief system is definitely wrong, but we were forced to study plenty of literature when I was in school, much of it far less relevant. I don’t see the difference with the Bible, especially if presented as a historical document and prototypical collection of stories?
I’m not religious and wasn’t raised in a religious family, but when I decided to pick up a Bible and read it as a teenager I couldn’t believe how much context it gave me on our culture and its origins.
Having to read and study the whole thing would also help rein in overzealous religion IMO. The #1 reason I’ve heard from evangelicals who left their church was “I decided to read the Bible for myself”
If you go back further though, translation of the text to a language the “people” could understand was illegal. Anyone caught with such texts was imprisoned or worse. Those in charge and using religion to control the masses (it’s true intention IMHO) didn’t want everyone to be able to read it, they wanted people depending on the “chosen” to teach and judge them (what today we may call a cult).
he people making that history were strongly influenced by the Bible
Depends what era you’re talking about and what you mean by influence. I would say that the reason Thomas Paine’s Age of Reason was so popular and that Jefferson made his own version of the New Testament, which removed the supernatural, suggest that the Bible was less of an influence in the founding of the nation than would be supposed here. The fact that Muhammad is in as venerated a place on the Supreme Court building as Moses also suggests they didn’t think it was the source of all wisdom.
Really, you need to look no further than our legal system though to see how little influence the Bible and Christianity actually have. I don’t just mean the First Amendment, I mean the fact that our whole system is basically a gradual evolution from the laws of Ancient Rome. They had trial by jury in Ancient Rome. It was a permanent jury, not a jury of one’s peers, but you can see the skeleton of our legal system and how it came from those ancient heathens, not Jesus.
I think you are really glossing over the work of Thomas Aquinas. It’s kind of hard to separate the Rome/Greek stuff from the historical Christianity stuff before modern day Evangelical Fundamentalism. Christian thought historically became very linked to Greek philosophy.
In what way was Thomas Aquinas an important influence on the founding of the United States and in what way would that be appropriate to teach elementary school kids?
For anyone curious about who shows up on the Supreme Court building
Thank you for that. Incidentally, I have never heard for a big push from Muslims to remove Muhammad from the building, or at least obscure his image. I’m not sure if that’s because they aren’t aware of it or just because it is too old to do anything about it at this point.
I have a lot of friends who, like me grew, up going to church. Some went to catholic high schools, some went to liberal arts colleges with required religions classes in the core curriculum, or had other exposure. None of us go to church in our adulthood and have no intention starting when we have kids. But we all want our kids to have an understanding of what Christianity is because it’s important for understanding American history, origins of non profit institutions, and contemporary political and cultural climate. Also want to ensure there’s exposure and understanding of Judaism, Islam, and other predominant religions. Not sure how kids are supposed to get that these days without growing up in a religious house hold.
Growing up in the Pacific Northwest I remember in school we studied Native American cultures which included some exposure to myth and religion. I wish there was a way schools could touch on modern religions in a more neutral way, perhaps more similar to how we teach classics/greek mythology.
Not sure how kids are supposed to get that these days without growing up in a religious house hold.
The same way I did in my public middle school in the 90s and the same way my daughter did in her social studies class last year- by teaching comparative religion and attempting to do so without bias. And at no point was I or was she taught that the Bible was one of the important founding documents for our nation, since it wasn’t and that’s not true.
If we read any passages from the Bible or the Quran during that class, I don’t remember them. My daughter’s class did not have them. And yet we now both have enough understanding of those religions to be able to put them within a historical framework.
Then teach the parts of Isaiah which show clearly he held in contempt the people, of his day, who were doing what the “Jews” who convicted benJoseph, did, & what the “Christians” who identify as Republicans are doing now.
Teach how benJoseph called biblical-legalists “Hypocrites!” right in the bible.
Teach them all the things in their own bible which identify the “Christian” fascism as being the enemy of their own root-guru/Christ.
Here is Isaiah 1 from their bible, so you can see that what Moses fought against a couple millenia earlier ( if one happens to remember that stuff from other readings ), happens this time not within the people of Egypt, but within the Israelites…
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah+1&version=AMP
Obviously, now it’s happening within the “Christians”.
Notice, here, that nearly-all teachings on Hypocrites! are in the New Testament…
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=hypocrite&version=AMP
& here is a phrase, right in their bible, of the whole “they call themselves Jews, but are gaslighting” sentiment,
which, as anybody with integrity would understand, is an accusation which can be placed on many of ANY human religion, including the Dharmic religions ( including my own beloved Vajrayana ), including the Abrahamic religions, including the people who claim Science but embody/enforce Scientism’s gaslighting, etc…
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+2%3A9&version=AMP
It is a particular kind of dishonesty, and it isn’t limited-to any tradition or culture, no matter how convenient to some ideologies that would be.
Find all the parts of the bible that contradict the gaslighters who call themselves “Christian”, & teach only those bits.
WHEN teaching the now-legally-required-in-some-jurisdictions “10 Commandments”, add this & discuss how this applies to the people who legislate in our countries:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+2%3A10&version=AMP
“Those who live by the sword, die by the sword”.
Turn their own book’s honest-truths against their falseness.
_ /\ _
Reading the Memorandum, it doesn’t specify what Bible is to be used. Perhaps malicious compliance uses a “alternative” version?
Also found this from the Satanic Temple (who hopefully is on top of this) -
If a public school permits the distribution of religious materials to the student body, they have opened a limited public forum and are obligated to allow religious materials from other faiths. This principle applies to other forms of school-sponsored religious expression as well.
Also funny how these hypocrites go on and on about indoctrination, and then want to indoctrinate every kid in the state by law.
