The indoctrination of windows is extreme. Windows is just as hard as linux, harder even with all the layers of obscurity.
And yet… linux is hard, and users decry RTFM as “not growing the userbase”
RTFM is not a working formula. Because most people skip reading the manual for one simple reason, the manual is hard to read.
I remember my early arch days when asking a question about an issue I’m having was always met with a wikipage I already read but did not understand.
Rather than pushing for a magic manual, the best is to provide sane default or point to tutorials.
The best is when people tell you to RTFM and the information you need just straight up isn’t there.
Or “if you’re having trouble there is no manual, FAQ, or wiki, just join our discord troubleshooting channel” vomit
It’s the same way you gotta ask if they turned it off and on again. Too many don’t even look up the manual, now yes. Some hostility is just plain hostility, but the phrase is there for a good reason.
Maybe if the people giving advice would RTFM, they’d know what isn’t in it.
Aaaand why is that? It’s hard to read because…?
We need individuals like you to help it out. It’s like wikipedia
It’s hard to read because people lack background knowledge. Man pages were horrible for my first 15 years or so.
Once you have the skills that you hardly need to read them they’re fine.
That’s why everyone wants to look it up on stack exchange, they want the answer, not an unending series of lessons
Man pages are still not great on Linux. Very few examples with common use-cases and explanations. I shouldn’t need to visit the Arch wiki.
OpenBSD man pages are a delight in comparison, and really all you need to learn how to manage the system.
They are hard to read because they are written to explain concepts to people who already understand them. Handy if you just need them for reference. Useless if you are trying to learn. Which is why RTFM is often bad advice
I’m currently trying to migrate my stack on my VPS from docker to podman. Bonus points if I get it running rootless.
Somehow, podman compose just wouldn’t work with my existing docker compose file. I quickly found out that podman has many options, but quadlets are preferred. It took me a while to understand what they even are and their concept. I did get the idea and the concept from the docs, but everything else was demonstrating how to set up a very simple one (think a hello world container). Or I found some blog posts with ready made complex examples for some random stacks that were way over my head. But a simple tutorial on how to map the fields/parts of a docker compose to a .container, .network or .volume file for my stack consisting of several containers in a few networks with a reverse proxy in front of it? Nope.
I’m the end I found podlet and used that to convert a docker-compose. While the result wasn’t completely working (e.g. a problem with some environment vars that got passed and switched in a few “layers” that podlet understandably messed up), it was enough to understand all of it with the docs and complete the quadlet. Now I just need to experiment with the rootless part.
Currently, my first and foremost pet peeve is, that different distros use different approaches and utilities, but many blog posts or guides don’t tell you what distro they’re for. If you google the problem and find the fourth guide on how to solve it and realize halfway through, that it’s again e.g. for Debian based systems, while you’re running on SUSE or RedHat or Arch or… can be very frustrating.
It’s hard to read because it’s a manual made for technical users.
On Linux most of the software is made by freelance developers who often forget that all users are not technical and even if they are they don’t want to be forced to interact with technical stuff. For the same reason I don’t want to daily-drive gentoo, sometimes I don’t want to read the manual.
I happen to be a contributor on multiple FOSS project and most didn’t have a docs directory in their repo or website, let alone an user guide. That’s fine for a CLI program to rely on wiki/manuals but graphical apps should have a user guide on their website. Working on documentation is a thankless job in FOSS spaces.
Then people need to be taught how to read better. Not Linux’s fault the education system was dismantled over the years.
I mean, people are gonna bite my head off for this, but most non technical folks are turned off by someone calling them stupid… That’s what “RTFM” sounds like. I think there needs to be a culture change to drive adoption, but stuff like the Steam Deck is helping a lot.
These days, they could even just ATFAI (like Ask The Fucking AI) and would arrive at desired destination.
The thing that prevents adoption is the human fear of change.
😄yes, but to be honest, I, for example, learned practically all coding I can by reading code together with AI
And as it is code, I see what happens when I compile/execute it and can uncover hallucinations like this.
Of course, my code is at first vibe programming with many small commits, but as soon as it is working, I clean up by rebasing and double checking all commits to be consistent.
And it generally helps me well with my Linux issues, as it is pretty good parsing the arch wiki
I understand the impetus behind RTFM - It happens when the user failed to do basic troubleshooting and expects others to do their thinking. Being blown off doesn’t feel great, but other people’s time is valuable, and in the end your system is your own responsibility.
I feel like linux demands an understanding of the relationship between hardware and software more than windows does.
If all personal computer users were tech tinkerers like they were in the 70s and 80s, then linux and its distros would basically be the default OS everyone used. But that is not the world we live in. Microsoft saw a world where everyone was a computer user and Windows was designed in a way to support that vision.
Theres nothing inherently wrong with catering to the lowest common denominator, linux apostles just need to understand that not everyone can be uplifted to their level, nor do they want to be - or, even, should be.
Microsoft saw a world
That’s not what happened. They got a dominant position because IBM could not even on their IBM PCs, and were at the right place at the right time, even if DOS was actually just garbage. With the power/money from this deal, they strongmanned their position as dominant PC operating system long after that era using legal and illegal anti-competitive means.
Microsoft still has wide unethical reach with secret and not-so-secret contracts and agreements not to allow other operating systems to gain a foothold in OEMs. And that’s before you get through the sheer inertia from users that completely refuse to try something different on the grounds that they don’t want to.
Besides this, the complete apathy in Europe moving off Microsoft software is quite concerning. Companies in the US are already collaborating with fascists in an unreflected way in true capitalist fashion - as happened 90 years ago. The reaction to this in terms of OS selection by companies is to hide their head in the sand and pour concrete for good measure. This will not work indefinitely, and I feel like nobody is going to suffer consequences for being a completely willful useful idiot for what is in summation a batshit fascist regime.
Yes, I am putting Microsoft and fascism on the same pedestal, the end stage in Microsoft bashing. The sad part with this meme is that in 2025 it’s not unwarranted.
Nobody has ever been fired for ordering SAP Microsoft, right?
Choosing software is mostly choosing a tool get a job done. Microsoft has powerful software and a big ecosystem around it.
Windows is really good for administrating lots of workstations for large organizations for example.
Honestly Active Directory is so underrated. I think having the ability to run all your machines Inna shared collective with group policies and high controls really helped Windows adoption.
Even today there isn’t anything quite like Windows polices. Sure you can get the same effect on Linux but it takes a lot more work and requires more scripting and customization. I think Apple and Android have equivalent management tools but I don’t really know how they compare in practice.
Nobody disputed that their current software works.
Choosing software is mostly choosing a tool get a job done.
The issue in this case is that the vast majority of companies will choose a tool made by a company that will now be bending their will to a fascist dictator whose cronies cannot be trusted to do rudimentary operational security.
There was always the nebulous stranglehold that the US might have on the IT security of any company that chooses Microsoft, because you cannot build Windows and the vast majority of their software from source, or audit them.
From the IT security perspective of Europe it’s exactly like all zero-days and backdoors known and implemented by the US intelligence agencies were just handed over to North Korea.
This was my thought as well. Unix was built from the ground up as an OS to support researchers and engineers. Later people adapted it to desktop use. Windows was built to be easy to use for the average person from much earlier on. I don’t think anyone claiming that it’s not easier to use than Linux has used it lately or is being completely honest.
Fortunately, today the gap is really small compared to what it was IMO. Compatibility with games has gotten really good which pretty much leaves behind the proprietary professional apps in terms of raw functionality. With Microsoft testing the limits of how much they can exploit their user base, I think we’ll see slow but steady growth in the desktop Linux space.
I feel like linux demands an understanding of the relationship between hardware and software more than windows does.
Yes, when we install Linux on something that didn’t ship with Linux installed.
But in an apples to apples scenario - pre-installed OS provided by the manufacturer, it’s Windows that comes with more bullshit.
And there are (finally!) plenty of options to buy a pre-installed Linux computer, today.
It’s a tiny fraction as many as pre-installed Windows or Mac, of course. But it’s still plenty. There’s a half dozen companies with solid reputations and hardware specialties, and I only need one.
Windows users and Linux users are not seeking the same thing from their machines. The common mistake I often see from Linux advocates.
From personal experience, when I was a Windows user, I didn’t care (or even know) about privacy, open-source software, nor owning my machine. I didn’t care if I had to sign up for a Microsoft account, and I never changed defaults ever (except for my wallpaper). I just wanted the machine to turn-on, work, and play some games.
Why am I bringing this up? Because Linux requires the user care about their machine and defaults. You need to know your architecture, graphics card, and threat-model. You need to know what your apps are called and where they come from. You need to know what tools you need to troubleshoot (and devs will not help you). This is the biggest the pain-point of Linux. Do not succumb to the survivorship bias of RTFM or command-line.
This issue cannot be fixed from simplifying Linux interfaces (though we should do this anyway!). The soul of Linux is adventure, collaboration, and tinkering. To get the most from your machine, you’re going to have to interact with several communities. This is what makes Linux great, and frankly I do not think we should kill this for the general public - this is how you get enshittification.
The general public needs to understand that incompetence (being brain-dead) will lead to misery. It is simply the rule of the land. You need to care and you need to collaborate. We should not welcome nor accommodate users that refuse to do this.
I switched to Linux mint because I don’t want to think about those things. I barely know how to use the terminal, and probably won’t anytime soon. I just pulled the apps I needed off the software manager. I’m as happy as a clam in shit.
An OS that just works, without the constant bullshit that capitalism breeds always encroaching. It does what I want when I want it, no more no less.
Linux Mint is a great distro, and I’m happy it works for you.
In terms of mass-adoption though, the fatal point is probably putting a Linux ISO on a thumb drive. Like I said prior, we must be aware of survivorship bias. You don’t care much for the terminal - but you made it through.
The people that didn’t make it through probably failed from the thumb drive step. I only say this from personal experience, because when I first installed Linux, I was very determined and came extremely close to giving up at this step. And I only got through because I happened to find an obscure forum about how Rufus needed a special setting for my machine.
P.S. I also was not tech savvy, but I wasn’t completely lost either - and I still struggled really hard here.
I remember back when I was a kid, the only way I was even able to try Ubuntu was through “WUBI” which was pretty cool - it allowed you to “install” Ubuntu via Windows, by leveraging the VHD support in the Windows 7 bootloader. It could also be uninstalled via the Windows control panel as it was registered just like any other program.
As far as I understand, it was discontinued because of inherent technical issues with that system - but I always thought if it could be done again, then it’d help bridge the gap a bit. All you had to do was download the installer, and double click it like any other program.
I had no clue how to write an image to a flash drive, hell I doubt I even had a flash drive to use at the time. 😅
This means that there’s plenty of room for companies to sell curated lists of apps that just magically work. I would buy the shit out of that for a work machine that just needs to work, no matter what. I’d also pay for something like that for my mom or my fiancé neither of them are particularly tech interested but will happily use something if it works.
This is actually a really deep rabbit-hole. To avoid typing a novel, I’m going to cut out a lot of nuance.
Windows is installed by default on machines. Since people do not change defaults (many studies have been done on this), this is checkmate. As long as this is true, Linux will not have a major (20%+) market share.
So this has to start from the OEM. Several Linux OEMs exist (i.e Tuxedo Computers, System76, Framework) but they cannot compete with the Microsoft network. Those who are interested in Linux, but are not tech savvy, really really really should buy their device from a Linux OEM.
Driver issues are near non-existent on Linux OEM hardware. So software is the next step; and let me tell you, developing for Linux is rough. There are 2 window servers, 2 graphic stacks, 2 desktop environments, 2 coding standards, 2 C libraries,… you get the point. A lot of this can be abstracted, but it takes genuine work to do - and may be obsoleted in a month; meaning no company will do this.
All to say, creating “magically working” apps - even with a lot of monetary support - is a herculean task. Even Valve (who is FLUSHED with cash) gave up and just decided to make their own distro (SteamOS).
A lot of issues also just require personal tweaks due to open-source software being extraordinarily bad at setting sane defaults. With something like Windows, you can hire people to make this better. Who do you hire to fix the defaults for 300 independent projects? And will the devs even listen to them?
I could keep going, but you get the point, the buck is going to have to stop at the user for a lot of things.
The best solution (in my opinion) is to have specialized distros and have people choose from them. Want to game? SteamOS. Want to dev? Fedora. Want to surf the web? Linux Mint. Creating, and more importantly accurately listing, specialized distros will make lives easier. Leave the defaults to the devs, just download the “vibe” you want.
My wife is on NixOS, because she wanted a system that would be exactly the same if it died. She doesn’t know Linux from Mac or Windows; She doesn’t care about privacy or where apps come from, only that it operates the exact same everyday. (And Windows could not satisfy this requirement)
A pain point I’ve seen with NixOS for new users is the focus on editing files — how easy is it for her to install applications that way?
IIRC, flatpaks do work with NixOS so long as it’s enabled (and you’ve installed GNOME Software / Discover / etc - since I assume they’re not using the terminal to install programs, and that’s assuming that they don’t need more than a web browser).
So, if OP already set that up, then if Flathub has all you need, then it would make sense.
Though the Nix philosophy would disagree because that’s imperatively installing software rather than declaratively. You could probably wire up something to dump flatpak list to a file every so often and then load that in from configuration.nix or a Flake, but I’m not well versed in Nix at all haha
She doesn’t install apps, Her config is what she needs. But nixOS install is pretty simple if you can copy paste text.
You go here https://search.nixos.org/packages
Search for a package, and click if you want permanent or ephemeral app and paste the code into the shell or into your config file.
Run a rebuild
Pretty easy
I agree with you in general, but there are people out there making specific distros with that sort of stuff in mind too. Ublue’s OSs is pretty much that: “just use it and leave the tinkering to us”. And I would argue if you’re not a developer doing advanced stuff, those work just as smoothly as windows does.
Agreed. There are many facets to this problem, so it’s difficult to get in one post, so I’ll try to reconcile the main points.
The core of what I’m trying to say, is don’t kill Linux trying to become Windows. Linux is great because it diverse, but it also has difficulties because of this. We should not change (nor destroy) the ecosystem for people who do not care to understand it.
That being said, we can also make it easier for people who do care and cooperate to make it over. But if we do this we, as Linux users, have to look at this from the right lens. The question is not “Linux users, what do you find difficult?”; this is survivorship bias. The question is “Windows users, why can’t you get Linux on your machine?”. From this framing, the real issues become a lot more apparent:
- Not savvy enough to set up USB stick
- Driver, and other hardware, issues
- Programs needed for work, or general daily usage, are unavailable
- Too much tinkering required (this is related to, but not the same as RTFM and CLI)
The first two points can be solved by purchasing a machine from a Linux OEM (i.e System76). If this is not possible, then you are going to have to do research; if this burden is too heavy, Linux is not for you.
AI has a good and valid use-case here, as it can significantly ease this process (even if it’s only right 60% of the time).
Linux may not have an alternative for your preferred programs; if this burden is too heavy, Linux is not for you.
Developers should follow open guidelines (i.e POSIX). If they refuse to, there is nothing Linux can (nor should) do about it.
The last point can be solved by distro choice, we completely agree here. The problem is finding said distro, which is difficult. For example, I’ve never heard of Ublue until your post. I appreciate distros that handle defaults and don’t push breaking changes. The community can make this better by having a dedicated website (with a decision tree) for choosing a distro, but this has its own set of issues.
No matter, the responsibility falls on the user to pick the right distro; if this burden is too heavy, Linux is not for you.
Torvalds should create a standards/stewardship for a my-first-linux introduction to linux. Super minimalist and specifically puts limits on its complexity. Make it good enough for the average person who has installed windows machines to be able to install
And every one of you linux people need to support all distros including the ones youve never heard of, or wouldnt touch it with the appropriate substitute of 10ft pole
The amount of bickering ive seen about “best distros” is insane. You people sound like rabid sports fans, or idiotic ford vs chevy luddites.
Linux as a brand needs a massive overhaul of its public image.
And that happens by making it dumb stupid easy for people to get started.
What does your computer need to do? Identify a set up, including a version of all the tools 40% of all users will need or rely on, and make it simple to plug a peripheral in and make it work seemlessly.
IIIRC im told Mint is most of the way to this.
If gamers are who made windows what it is today, i think its going to be content creators who will push the next era of pc users
Windows is to Linux what McDonald’s is to cooking your own food.
More like a restaurant that has Korean BBQ / hot pot on the menu. Most meals are completely prepared, but for some you need to do a small part yourself.
You know what, I like this one. And just like KBBQ/hot pot, there’s gonna be people who ask “what’s the point of going to a restaurant if they make you cook it yourself?” And you know what I say to those people?
You’re entitled to your opinion and I respect that - also, more hot pot for me!
Linux is going to cook your own food, then realising that you don’t have half the ingredients, so you either have the choice of going to the shop where all the food is labelled in Swahili, and there’s no pictures of what’s in the packages, and a lot of the people who shop there are kinda stuck up and look down at you for not speaking Swahili, and by the time you’ve gone round the shop three times and asked for help and you’re still not sure what you’ve got in the trolley but you buy it anyway and then you get home and you’ve got some of the stuff for dinner but you’re still missing some essential ingredients OR going to McDonald’s and getting everything on the menu but Ronald follows you home.
