From a hotel in Kyoto to a sandwich joint in Edinburgh, the world is becoming hostile toward Israelis who are learning that a vacation won’t shield them from the Gaza war.
During the nine months of war the Israeli tourist experience abroad has been marked by fears of antisemitism and efforts to avoid pro-Palestinian demonstrations.
According to reports by Israeli media and posts online, some of those worries have recently turned real for a number of Israeli tourists.Anecdotal incidents at touristic locations around the world are making it clear that even though there is no official policy of excluding Israelis, that is sometimes the situation on the ground.
An especially bumpy week began on June 17 at the Material Hotel in Kyoto, Japan, when an Israeli named Alex was informed that his reservation had been canceled due to the allegations of Israeli war crimes in Gaza. The Material told Alex that it was “not able to accept reservations from persons we believe might have ties to the Israeli army,” as reported by Israeli website Ynet.
The story made the rounds on social media, produced a stern protest letter from Israel’s ambassador in Tokyo, and led to a rebuke by the Kyoto municipality that the hotel had breached Japanese business law and must ensure that such a transgression won’t happen again.
Jews around the word are less safe because of Israel when they were promised the opposite. Their faith has been used as a cover for a land grab and they put your holy symbol on a flag they go to war, and worse, under. It’s no wonder so many Jews at least in the US are critical of Israel. It probably feels a lot like being a regular Muslim watching groups commit violence with their religious iconography and warped interpretations used to create ‘justification’.
Anecdotally, I’ve never met any Jewish people in the US who didn’t have strongly negative opinions of the government/state of Israel.
Some people aren’t okay with their holy texts being warped into a cudgel and used to beat down the innocent.
It depends on your particular social circle but 80-85% of Jews are supportive of Israel. Most oppose Netanyahu.
I think there’s a lot of nuance here, because “supporting Israel” can mean a lot of different things. Generally agreeing with the idea of being allies with a primarily Jewish state and wanting a good well-being for them is very different from endorsing Israel’s genocide against Gaza, but both could be considered as “supporting Israel”.
Some people aren’t okay with their holy texts being warped into a cudgel and used to beat down the innocent.
Damn, if that isn’t a spot-on description of how I feel about my faith right now.
My parents don’t understand why I stopped going to church, amd when I try to explain why, they say that they’re different when they’re really not.
There’s a very logical filter at play here: if you didn’t think seeking beef with Arabs and participating in a colonialist project in the 50s/60s/70s was a good idea, you would have stayed in the US, and otherwise, you would have moved to Israel. This made it so that Jews in the US lean liberal and Jews in Israel lean ethno-nationalistic, in very broad terms.
I notice similar things as well, in that my personal expirences with them, comapred to average US population, US Jews seem to be far more informed on whats happening and far more likely to have at least harsh critisizm for Isreal. Part of why I really hate people conflating the two in order to spread hate.
Not to rain on your experience, but aren’t a lot of Zionists in the illegal land settlements also Americans, and aren’t a lot of the Jewish people participating in “birthright trips” also American?
US Jewish populations are actually really polarized on this topic, they aren’t a monolith. There is definitely more of an age/generational divide regarding Zionism in Jewish communities than a nationality split.
The Star of David is not a Jewish holy symbol, having that would be sacrilege anyway, similar to idolatry. It’s not even the Star of David, to be honest.
At some point Jewish secularists in Europe wanted some symbol for the Jewish identity. They picked one very commonly used in the Middle East, by all peoples and religions.
By the way, crescent is not a Muslim holy symbol, too, and with the same implication of idolatry. Though they have in practice accepted it, just like Jews. It’s the symbol of Constantinople, which Ottomans used in line with their pretense to be heirs of Rome (I mean, if Germans can do that, why not them).
Many of the Jews around the world have a very idealized idea of Israel and simply can’t believe it’s bad. See, when you are a member of a demonized (even today) minority, but somewhere is a strong and successful state of your nation that has restored its presence in its cradle 2000 years after being partially wiped out, partially expelled from there, you tend to be irrational.
Also separation of religion and nation is a Western thing, Jewish religion is about a nation, and, by the way, Muslim religion too states that all Muslims are one nation.
EDIT: OK, why the downvotes here? Everything here is factual. And if that’s the paragraph about 2000 years triggering people - that’s a right, yes. The state of Israel sucks, but not the general idea. Same as Sebastia, Malatia, Sis, Sasun, Mush, Van are Armenian till the end of days in my book.
At least the Germans had the Holy Roman Empire. The Ottomans knocked over the Byzantines who actually were the old Eastern Roman Empire. The Ottomans had about as much claim to one of the crowns of Rome as the Netherlands has to the HRE crown.
Sounds like you’re condoning this behaviour.
Edit: good old Lemmy, where saying it’s bad to hate on people just because of where they’re born will get you downvoted to oblivion. You all need to step back and re-examine your views.
It doesn’t say they’re excluding all Jewish people, it says they’re excluding Israelis. You know, people from the country where they all serve in the military, except the most extreme religious extremists (for now anyway), the country actively violating international law in the West Bank and actively committing genocide.
There are plenty of non-Israeli Jewish people. Non-Zionist Jews are lovely people and should not be excluded.
This is the same as refusing to do business with apartheid South Africans.
This is the same as refusing to do business with apartheid South Africans.
Reminds me of some of the tourism sanctions on Russians as well. I don’t like when the net’s cast too wide, I know for a fact there are Israeli and Russian peoples who would stop these conflicts if they could and it sucks they’re caught up in this, but I can understand the premise of barring by nationality. I just also know in the case of Israel, it’s likely going to be taken to far or used as a point to embolden bigots who may try to use this to cover their beliefs about all Jews and make them appear easier for normal folk to tolerate. Really a double edge sword because I do think Israel needs a dose of responsibility, hell if the world had the balls American could use one too.
This is some random dude, not Benjamin Netanyahu. Would you support that hotel banning all Palestinians because they are governed by an internationally-recognized terrorist organisation?
YES.
Denizens of an apartheid regime, beneficiaries of a genocide do not get to enjoy tourism abroad. Is that unequivocal enough for you?
Punishing unknown people for the actions of their government?
As a US citizen, this is concerning.
My government has done all kinds of shit I have no control over, and don’t condone.
Should I be held responsible for any of it?
Nice awardspeechedit
You aren’t being down voted for saying it’s bad to hate on people because they’re Jewish or Israeli.
You’re being down voted for espousing a false dichotomy, on par with “if you aren’t with us you’re against us”
You’re being down voted for espousing a false dichotomy, on par with “if you aren’t with us you’re against us”
That’s the boldest doublespeak I’ve seen in a long time. I’m not the one supporting a blanket ban of all citizens of an entire country. It doesn’t get much more “with us or against us” than that.
Correct. Citizens of a government that is conducting a genocide ahould not be welcome in other countries.
You can’t read. Those are facts and written in a passive voice. Condoning the behavior reads something like: “The state of Israel has sown seeds of ill will nurtured by lies and here comes harvest time” or “Yeah fuckers, get dunked on world stage” or something similar and in-between.
How on earth is that passive voice? Their whole reply is devoted to criticising Israel, and not a single word to the effect of “it isn’t OK to treat people badly because of where they are from”. This sounds an awful lot like victim-blaming to me.
Edit: let’s try a little experiment. Imagine me replying this to an article about a Palestinian being banned from a hotel simply for being Palestinian.
Palestinians around the word are less safe because of Hamas when they were promised the opposite. Their faith has been used as a cover for terrorism and they put your holy symbol on a flag they go to war, and worse, under. It’s no wonder so many Muslims in the middle east are critical of Palestinians. It probably feels a lot like being a regular Christian watching Republicans commit violence with their religious iconography and warped interpretations used to create ‘justification’.
Found the person that wouldn’t participate in sanctioning apartheid south Africa.
It honestly feels like we somehow have to take back the (very loaded) word “antisemitism”, as Israel and its supporters seem intent on making it mean “anything the Israeli government disagrees with”.
I’m not an antisemite, and have no hate whatsoever for anyone because of theirs religious beliefs or where they come from. My views are antizionist and antigenocide. Which are strictly political views, not tied to any specific demographic of people.
This has been going on for years though. In the same way that it is not islamophobic to criticize somebody who happens to be Muslim. It is not anti-semitic to criticize somebody who is Jewish. But you try explaining that to Jewish person and you get pushback as if somehow criticizing the military and their government, is the same as criticizing them even though I never even mentioned them.
According to my parents this argument has been going on since the '60s so I don’t think it’s going to get resolved anytime soon.
Definitely a good point, but not very relevant as the article doesn’t really touch on antisemitism, but more on blanket rejection of Israeli citizens with no regard for what their opinion may be
That’s because Israel got what they wished for when they adopted Herzl’s idea.
Herzl said that Jews will never be accepted as truly American or truly French etc. so they need their own country and form their own distinct nation. Well they got it and found out that form of nationalism is outdated and exposes them to these accusations. Israel claims to speak for all Jews, and thus people draw the false conclusion that Jews worldwide collectively support all Israeli policies even the rightwing and criminal ones. The existence of Israel only worsened the accusations that Jews are a fifth column or secretly more loyal to Israel over their own countries.
It’s actually kinda sad because diaspora Jews are more likely to oppose Netanyahu, and this discrimination is being wielded by Netanyahu to claim they won’t be safe anywhere unless they immigrate to Israel.
Zionism is the belief the Jewish people deserve a place to call their own, similar to the belief the Italian people deserve a place to call their own. Antizionism is the belief the Jewish people don’t deserve a place to call their own.
Had someone came up and said the Italian people don’t deserve a place to call their own, would you not call them racist towards Italians?
Why not the same here?
You can be against the actions of the Israeli government (I definitely am), but saying it shouldn’t exist is a whole other ballpark.
Exactly: I am antizionist because Jews getting a place of their own implicitly means that some other group, which currently has that place, must be displaced.
Saying that Jews should have a place of their own is not comparable to saying that Italians should have a place of their own, because being Italian is tied to having hereditary ties to the place that is Italy, whereas being a Jew has no tie to a specific piece of land. It is rather comparable to saying that Christians, Muslims, the Amish, or some other group of people that are dispersed and unified by beliefs not tied to a place should have their own place, and that if such a place does not exist it is legitimate to displace others to establish it.
I firmly believe that Israel should never have been created. As do many Jews (often ultra orthodox ones). However, I recognise the reality on the ground, that the state now exists and that many of those that moved there have now lived there for up to several generations. I do not believe that two wrongs make a right, and as such, I’m not a proponent of dissolving the state of Israel and displacing the Jews that now live there to make room for those displaced following 1948. However, I do believe that the displaced Palestinians should be allowed to return and have equal rights within the now existing state of Israel.
You mix up the religion Judaism with the ethnicity and culture. The jewish cultural and ethnic group is amongst the least religious peoples in the world, as many as 75% according to a study a few years back being atheist or agnostic (myself included).
The various jewish ethnic groups do have genetic ties to a geographic area and have diseases almost entirely unique to that ancestry.
That does however beg the question of whether ancestry is any sort of motivation to lay claim to an area of land in the first place. A question that can be endlessly debated and if accepted at face value opens up endless cans of worms. (How far back? Forever? Can it be lost? What if multiple peoples have claim to an area? etc. etc.)
It shouldn’t exist. They had a chance but they fucked around. There’s plenty of nationalities that don’t have sovereign countries. Anthropologists point to roughly 11 nations in the US alone. No government elevating one nation above others should be allowed to continue to exist. Especially where they commit human rights abuses to do so. In fact it’s generally the idea of a single nation country that begets these abuses.
So no. They don’t get a land specifically and only for Jews. They aren’t special.
To further drive the point home, you bring up Italy, but Italy was only recently unified in European history. If you want a Jewish version of Italy then you want a single state solution with equal rights and representation for Palestinians.
The Italians already had Italy.
In this case, a proper analogy would be if furries demanded a place to call their own.
Would you just give it to them?
Or in a less ludicrous example, Romani people. It would still be met with relentless opposition from whoever you were trying to take the land from.
Italy is a worse example than that even. It wasn’t unified until 1861 and even then it was a country of two peoples. The North ruled at the expense of the South. (Yes I know there appear to be parallels to another, larger country with an 1861 event. But they are only skin deep.) And after World War 2 the country took care to be a democracy that represented the north and south.
They use Italy as an example like it was always around and unified. But it really wasn’t.
There’s a few points of critique.
Religion is not the same as nationality, there isn’t a country that is dedicated to Christianity for example. (well, you have the Vatican but you get what I mean, it’s not a nation) It’s a different thing, so you can’t argue that Jews have no home since they too have a nationality from the country they were born in, like everyone does regardless of religion. I’m not arguing against Isreal existing to be clear, just that having a country for a religion isn’t some given right that only Jews don’t have. They mgiht be the only ones to have it depending on how interpret it.
There’s interpretations of zionism. At its core it’s the belief that the religion should also be a nation. But different sides form around the “how” part. While having a country to live in isn’t bad itself, if zionism means driving out others or straight up genocide of others, then it’s fair to bluntly oppose it.
Isreal exists now, but the continued killing and takeover of Palestine is horrible. And these days many bind zionism to the acts and opinions that flourish in Isreal that portray Palestinians as some evil that should be removed. It think opposing an nationalistic view like Zionism is a reasonable action when the country is engaging in invasion.
A point of critique to your critique. There are ethnic jews, cultural jews and religious jews. Most ethnic/cultural jews are not religious jews. See more in my other comment
Just because someone is born in a country doesn’t automatically make them “of that nation” identity-wise first and foremost. Take the romani peoples as another example, they often identify first and foremost as romani, rather than by the country of their birth.
In your opinion am I a Zionist?
I believe Israel should be forced back to 1947 borders and there should be thousands of deportations to The Hague for war crime trials. I’d also like part of Jerusalem to be removed from both Israel and Palestine and turned into a world heritage site administered by UNESCO.
I am anti colonization and don’t think they should have created Israel as a nation state displacing an existing community but that horse has bolted.
was “not able to accept reservations from persons we believe might have ties to the Israeli army,”
Doesn’t Israel have mandatory service of 1-2 years for young adults? This means every citizen has ‘ties’ to their army. I wonder whether the news is avoiding that fact since it changes a few narratives, if so.
It makes things very complicated.
Recently Israel bombed a medic and claimed he was a combatant. They had a picture of someone that looked like the man sitting in a military uniform in 2019. However that person was not an active combatant at all.
Their only intelligence to designate him as Hamas was a deep learning match on the picture and the man’s face.
Assuming it was realy the medic in the picture, If any person that was ever affiliated with Hamas is a valid target the same would count for the IDF.
Meaning all Israeli civilians that ever served in the IDF suddenly count as military targets.
If you do what “they” do as a way to retaliate, are you any different from “them”? We need to be better than that.
Cut it out with this antisemitism bullshit. Nobody cares that you’re Jewish. People care about genocide no matter what invisible sky being you prefer.
So banning innocent people who might even agree with them is totally fair? Just because they’re from Israel or because of their religion?
They are banned for possible connections to a country and an organization (IDF) that have been confirmed to perform war crimes.
If you willfully target children no matter your skin colour, creed, religion or whatever arbitrary set of parameters you are a criminal.
Israelis are now discovering the price of being associated with war criminals.
Sorry but that’s a load of BS. I guess Americans should be banned everywhere because we are possibly connected to our country whose government has funded a shit ton of war operations? By that logic, almost nobody would be welcome in anybody else’s country.
Sounds a lot like what Americans faced when Bush attacked Iraq. And just as justified (ie not unjustified, but perhaps taken to extremes).
Israelis: Your government has made your nation a pariah. You are the people best positioned to change that. Get those motherfuckers out of office.
Israelis: Your government has made your nation a pariah. You are the people best positioned to change that. Get those motherfuckers out of office.
They’re trying… but for some inside perspective: the atmosphere feels somewhat oppressive. All mainstream media (except for this same Haaretz newspaper) get their info directly from the IDF, not considering other sources. And the right’s decades-long campaign to convince the majority of the populace that peace is impossible seems to be working (it’s a really complicated situation, made worse by people who actively want to make it worse). Compound that with the police becoming increasingly politicized (not that they weren’t discriminatory at all before), and you get a recipe for just a mess. You would just as well be asking why Russians haven’t got rid of Putin, Hungarians of Orbán, etc.
And despite that, there are protests. There are demonstrations. But dear Netanyahu doesn’t want to call an election. One can only hope that his coalition collapses over internal issues (look up: conscription of ultra-orthodox Jews, a hostages-for-ceasefire deal), though that is unlikely.
And this is even more horrible when you consider that Netanyahu’s policy of strengthening Hamas and weakening the PA/PLO, in order to lessen the chance of peace and, in his view, better Israel’s security, has led to the country actually losing territory for the first time in decades! Israelis would literally be safer if the Oslo accords had continued, to actual peace. But good luck convincing them (even those who oppose the current government) of that after years of right-wing government which made it seem impossible.
I want to stress that I don’t think your average Israeli citizen is an evil person. Not even your average IDF soldier (except those that actually call the shots). They believe that what they’re doing is necessary, because of (justified) anger at the 7th of October events, as well as the incredible success of the right in general to move the political climate in its direction. Might this be stupid? It might, but there are consequences for falling out of line (especially in the army, as you might imagine). That hasn’t stopped some admittedly brave people from doing it.
We’ve already seen that Netanyahu doesn’t care about protests; those are perpetual in Israel. He will only resign if he is absolutely convinced that it is better for his personal well-being to do that (currently, he doesn’t. He’s on trial for corruption).
The people themselves migrated there and are direct actors inthe ethnic cleansing
At least in the UK a lot of this was irritation that, yet again, our country was being drawn into a war that had nothing to do with us. It wasn’t aimed at individuals (although certain people decided to take it like that), it was the American government that we were annoyed with.
Everyone knows being rude to Americans is bad for mental health, because they’re the only group that will complain about it. For ages.
Many of them want to vote these bastards out, but they didn’t succeed so fuck em all? Pretty intense absolutism ya got there.
nondescripthandle made an excellent comment along these same lines: https://alexandrite.app/lemmy.world/comment/11202637
