I think we need to have a tough talk about why it’s so much harder to have kids these days, but that would involve talking about wealth inequality and the death of the community.
Yeah. Not having retired family in hood health nearby is an issue. Someone had to move for their career. Or died. Or is too fragile. Or still working.
Nearly need polygamy for the economic certainty.
My wife and I have 6 month old twins… we’re both only children too. We are so lucky that my mother in law moved to our town as soon as we told her. Both of my parents are disabled, and cannot assist. Also, my wife getting the 12 weeks fmla / baby bonding was fine, but not great. I got nothing for paternity leave from my office and took two weeks of pto when they were born. It was and still is rough. If we didn’t have MIL around, we’d be in a real tough spot…
Support networks are so incredibly important to parents. Don’t have kids of my own, but am helping with my sibling’s kids. Babysitting and just general support split with my parents. Thankfully, they don’t need financial help but that’d be on the cards if it came to it.
Support networks like this, whether it’s family, neighbours, friends or some combination is almost mandatory if you’re not very wealthy. It takes a village to raise a child, after all.
The lack of paternity leave and shortness of maternity leave in (assuming) the US is absolutely criminal. I was lucky enough to get 4 months, and that was not nearly enough to get my feet fully back under me before returning to work.
The fact that you had to take PTO just to bond with your kid is upsetting and frustrates me because those first few months are so valuable, and I feel like dads often miss out on so much.
It’s really straightforward to understand, there’s no “third places” for kids and kids are generally undesired in US society. It used to be, even if you weren’t religious, you had community because everyone in the neighborhood looked out for each other’s kids.
It’s a lot easier when you’re not outnumbered by kids and can swap with other adults, even if it’s 30 minutes to get a shower. Everyone is so isolated these days, it’s much more difficult to build support like that unless you are religious or have family involvement.
My street that I live on has twelve houses that front it, six on each side. Of those twelve houses, ten have kids, and nine have kids between 1 and 9 years old. It’s a real treat to be able to let the kids out, to share parenting responsibilities, to commiserate with the other parents when necessary, and to really just let the kids be kids. Sometimes there’s ten kids on the swingset in my backyard that is absolutely not designed for ten kids, or they’re riding bikes, or playing with chalk. It’s a real pleasure.
I bought the house 11 years ago. There were no kids. So we’ve kinda built the community. We’ve watched as houses go on sale, people come looking, and we would actually talk to them about our neighborhood.
So it’s kind of like the neighborhood that I grew up in at this point, and I really don’t think it was by accident. And I don’t think that my neighborhood is the only one like this.
Living the dream friend. I want that sense of community so bad. All my life I’ve lived isolated from others and it fucking sucks. My dad would always scold me: “go outside and play, get off the computer, blah blah blah” but like with whom? Glad your kids get to be kids. Cheers
I’m definitely not having kids for this reason, and many more. I’m doing I’d say okay right now. I’m stable ish. Why would I want to change that at all? I see my peers having kids and immediately they can’t afford to even go out to eat, and don’t have time to get a beer once every 4 months. They chose that, I don’t hold them against it, but why would I risk where I am for that?
One big one is that today’s parents put too much pressure on themselves (both individually and as a group) to always be supervising. Some parents don’t feel that they can leave their child alone for 30 minutes while they shower or clean, or watch TV, because we’ve built up expectations that everything is structured and that we’re supposed to sacrifice our individuality for the kid. Some recent research has shown that millennial parents are spending a lot more “hands on” time with their kids than any previous generation, rather than passive supervision like when kids are playing in the house while the adults do something else.
Plus there is a significant line of people who feel compelled to do high effort, high visibility shows of parenting effort: Instagram worthy birthday parties, more structured play and learning, high effort cooking of things from scratch rather than convenience foods, etc.
Finances (and working hours) are definitely a big part of it, but a bigger part is the shift in norms and expectations that we’re expected to be much more for our kids than prior generations.
A former coworker used to take leave when her kid was out of school. Kid was 10. I was a 10 year old “latchkey” kid in the 80’s, we’d get home, I’d make a snack for me and my 8 yr old brother. Then we’d ride our bikes until the streetlights came on, and we’d go home.
I’m not a parent. I don’t really think either her or my parents were “right” or “wrong”, but I don’t understand why that changed.
I don’t understand why that changed.
It’s easy to point at social media, and that’s part of it, but I think it’s probably the ubiquity of photos and videos, easily transmitted to others. Even those of us who aren’t on social media still send photos and videos of our kids to the grandparents, to cousins, to other friends and family. We’re constantly exposed to parenting highlights, which subtly shifts the expectations on what the non-highlight portions look like.
I have a baby.
This is accurate.
While they are <5 years old yea
But let me tell you, once you cross that magical school threshold things get significantly easier. Though you’ll have to deal with more and more social type problems, but those are easy IMO as it’s mostly just talking with them
Each year after that is easier…at least until the teen years, but again that’s more social/attitude type problems, at least you can just leave a 15 year old at home by themselves and go socialize by yourself and stuff
This week is my five-year-old’s winter break from school. I was not aware of that fact until yesterday.
I do love them and being with them (my post history should reinforce that if you doubt me); I don’t regret parenthood in the least; but their presence has definitely altered my plans for the week, especially those related to work. (I live in a rural area and have no friends here outside of my household, so socializing has not significantly changed for me.)
Point being, you’re definitely correct about that part.
I do love them and being with them (my post history should reinforce that if you doubt me); I don’t regret parenthood in the least; but their presence has definitely altered my plans for the week, especially those related to work. (I live in a rural area and have no friends here outside of my household, so socializing has not significantly changed for me.)
I loathe the rise of that “Super Parents” ideology, like if you can reorient your entire life around your children, that’s cool.
But if you can’t match it does not mean you love your kids any less.
As a new dad whose baby does not sleep and needs constant attention… this is encouraging to hear.
Each year is easier in my experience. When they can move, they are less frustrated because they can get to want they want. When they can talk, they don’t need to shout in order to tell you that they are hungry. When they can reason, you can explain how you are thinking.
What really helped us early on was routines. For our first child, we wrote down when she slept and when she ate. Eventually, she would cry and we would look at the clock and realise “its time for food”. And that transitioned into learning that we need to make lunch now because she will be hungry soon.
Also, removing the diper was a way less scary affair than I though it would be.
Always remember: This too shall pass
This got me through the worst nights. This, coffee and a large stock of favourite candies/snacks. Don’t worry, the sleep thing gets way better soon, hang in there!
If you don’t want kids, don’t have kids.
Don’t let family, or even your significant other pressure in to it.
I’m sure it is fulfilling for some, but some parents are carrying too much guilt to admit have a kid can lead to depression.
It definitely can. It took me 5 years after my kids were born to feel relatively normal again. 5 years is a long time to feel like you’re essentially trapped in your home. Granted, covid certainly didn’t help with that, but the pressure to act like everything is amazing all the time never made sense to me.
Kids are hard. There’s good moments too but as a percentage of your time they are more rare than the bad. Your brain does a good job of filtering out the bad when you look back on those times but that doesn’t make it easier to deal with in the moment.
It’s not that easy. Things change.
I am happy to have made the decision. However, I might have decided totally differently if I had known back then:
How badly the environment is going south (for humans) How bad my health would be (most critical things came up suddenly)
Among other things.
There’s research that found that people without children are happier than people with children.
Sounds like a kind of crazy blanket statement for actual researchers to make but then again sociology research… well…
Why is it crazy? It seems like the most sensible conclusion - no kids reduces stress significantly. Maybe in a world without need it’d be the other way around, but we don’t live in a post-scarcity society, do we?
Meaning has a lot to do with happiness and for me, my life has infinitely more meaning since the little one came along. A lot of people don’t need help finding meaning in their lives and that’s great, but taking care of my family is more rewarding than anything I have experienced. But yeah… not everyone is like me and that’s okay. Some people definitely shouldn’t have and/or don’t want kids and there’s nothing wrong with that.
Because it’s a simplistic blanket statement about a very complex issue. You think you can take a single factor “kids = stress” and that’s that?
I’m trying to imagine applying this logic to anything else.
Telling a friend not to try out for the baseball team, because playing baseball will increase your stress. Warning my sister not to watch a scary movie, because evidence shows they cause fear and discomfort. Breaking off a date with a cutie, because I’ve got butterflies and I don’t want to feel anxious.
What do these sociologists think about rollercoasters or car races or heavy metal concerts, I wonder?
According to this study, after adjusting for income, having children is actually associated with higher happiness and well-being.
From a Psychology Today article that summarizes it:
However, household income may not be a good indicator of financial stress. A family with low income that lives in an area with a low cost of living might experience less financial stress than a family with a higher income that lives in an area with a much higher cost of living. Therefore, the researchers conducted an additional analysis in which they included a direct measure of whether or not the family experienced difficulties in paying bills in the last year. This analysis showed that difficulties in paying bills represented a central influence factor for the relation of having children and parental well-being. When the researchers statistically controlled for financial difficulties, having children was actually related to greater well-being in parents.
The study also said that people with children felt more fulfilled over all 🤷♀️
They measured basically immediate happiness and long term happiness. In immediate happiness, the child free group won. In longterm happiness, the parents won. Did a lot of research into that before deciding to have a baby.
Just gotta decide what works best for you and your life style
if you think your kid is keeping you out of a nursing home i have news for you
better to make 3mil+ and get in a really good assisted living and a well payed lawyer
Or instead of banking on money and wealth to save you, just spend your money now, eat healthy, exercise and take care of your body.
It won’t matter if you’re 70 in an expensive care home and you don’t know your name. I have a few elderly wealthy relatives in my wife’s family who are in great care homes but have no clue where they are or who any one is.
And I’ve seen my fair share of people getting old in my family. It isn’t pretty when you are constantly unwell and then your mind eventually falters and then fails.
Better to enjoy what you have now regardless if you have kids or not because none of us are guaranteed a good healthy mentally stable old age.
better to make 3mil+
This seems to be the logic stumble in the anti-natalist brain. “If I just don’t have kids, then I’ll be rich one day!”
At some level, you need to dismiss the fantasy of being rich in the future and think about being happy in the moment.
I spent five years fostering before we finally landed a permanent placement. I’ve had the pleasure of hosting kids from age 0 to 4. And I’ll say that the work of taking care of another person is so much more fulfilling than bullshit office work or some shitty service sector job.
I go to bed early and tired but satisfied, rather than staying up late and dreading the next day. I’m not counting the hours to a retirement 20 years from now. I’m focused on my son’s first words and steps.
Just like with dating or caring for a pet or visiting family abroad, the value isn’t bound by the money I’m spending. It’s about bonding with others and continuing a relationship I can only measure in hours together.
I’m finding very little of this thread resonates with me. I have a toddler who I love and get to spend a whole day off with during the week. I still get to do my running, cycling, rock climbing. I get some reading done most nights.
I’ve mostly sacrificed video games and social life, but rock climbing is social and a happy child is far more rewarding than games.
There are sacrifices, but I don’t feel like I’ve given up my life. Is this because I don’t live in the USA?
Not living in the USA most definitely helps. The age of your kids makes a difference. My youngest is 16 months old and in his phase where he has no awareness of danger and sleeps like shit still and my gas tank is empty 24/7 by the shitty quality of sleep with the constant mental energy spent making sure he doesn’t kill himself. And that is when everyone is healthy.
I would litterally kill for them, but it is easy to understand why people feel like they do, especially with the current economic and societal context.
I think some just cope with parenthood better than others. Some take the feeling of bone deep mental and physical exhaustion and wonder “why/what the fuck was I thinking”. They just see all they are missing or regret not doing before. Others get that feeling and feel a deep satisfaction knowing it is a sign they are doing right for their kid. It completes them in a way that is inexplicable for those who don’t.
Not sure if that added anything or not but I felt it needed saying.
When the sleep sucks, everything else is worst for it.
I love my kids and I feel a great satisfaction raising them, but my tank is always running empty.
I think that parents are better at different stages of parenthood, and for me, between 9 months and 18 months is the fucking worst.
Maybe we got lucky with our kid’s sleep? I remember it was awful while my partner was on mat leave, but now they sleep through the night most nights so it’s usually other shit that’ll keep us up.
Were almost there. The oldest can manage herself for a little while in the morning and sleeps well
The youngest one is up at 5:30 - 5:45. It fucking sucks. And he still wakes up every other night.
6 more months and we should be over the bump.
Do you work more than 12 hours to make a basic income? I think that’d be a large difference between wherever you are and the US.
There are sacrifices, but I don’t feel like I’ve given up my life.
Yeah, I think one has to think about carefully first before having kids, and be prepared what they have to sacrifice. Raising a child is not easy.
I think what this post is portraying is regret that they haven’t expected on what sacrifices they have to make to take care of a child. A lot of people want to get married and/or have kids just for the sake of it, because that is what society expect them to do.
Another big part is that so many people have virtually zero support. It’s just them and their kids. For the first few years, we lived a 4.5hr drive from any family support. I don’t even know how you find and vet babysitters these days.
It doesn’t help that we’re atheists, so we don’t even get the built in community support that a lot of churches provide.
Do you still get to go places? I think the person in the comic used to travel a lot
Depends how much money you got. Once they are out of the “hold then in your lap” stage and you have to start paying for their airline seats it gets really expensive.
Not only that but trying to relax on a vacation with a small child must be miserable
My yearly vacation spot is iceland. How the hell would that work with a child
Really depends on your support network, and that’s not USA specific. If you have help and your kid is easy going, then life can be a lot easier than if you have no help and your kid is challenging. Help can takeany forms, so yes childcare in USA is expensive and hard to come by, but involved family can help a lot regardless of where you live.
curious if you have somewhere/someone you can trust the toddler with while you do those hobbies.
I found that having a support network (either personal through friends family, or socialized through the government) has a big effect on how miserable parents are early on.
It’s definitely partly not being in the US. Economically… it’s just really rough. Childcare for our one kid is nearly as much as our monthly mortgage. We make decent money but still have only enough savings to survive 2, maybe 3 months without income.
I still have plenty of hobbies, but like, because finances are tight, we only have one car in a very very car dependent area. There’s simply no public transit where I live. So all of my hobbies have to be at home, or after when my kid goes to bed, which is usually close to 9:30pm, leaving an hour, maybe two, for time to myself during the week.
Same here. Some of the things that have helped make our situation easier:
- Where we live, by law my wife got a year per kid off of work for childcare. I don’t know how people do this without a full-time parent.
- Since I work remotely, if my wife had a rough night, she could sleep during the day without worrying the kid was going to kill themselves because I would be around.
- Our kids were definitely on the easier side, especially our first. They almost never cried for zero reason (90% of crying was quickly remediated with the “diapers, hungry, sleepy” checklist), they quickly started sleeping well, etc. Some people have complete devil kids, colic, etc.
What we gave up was doing things together as a couple (romantic dinners etc), as we always had to either bring the kids or stay home with them, but we could still do things on our own when we wanted to. We have family nearby, but they deemed themselves “too old” to look over the kids when they were still babies. Now that our kids are in elementary school age they’ve been able to sleep over once or twice a year when we get to do a parents getaway for our anniversary etc.
My kid didn’t sleep through more than a few hours until she was around 2yo but I’d already had my 2nd when she was 20 months and he didn’t sleep through until he was around 2 also. Plus I had 2 c-sections to get over and we moved country. I don’t care about sacrificing an old social life but my health and fitness took a massive hit.
I don’t live in the USA either, good benefits here.
Its nice that you enjoy bein a dad. Do you and your other partner do equal parenting? Only One day in the work week with the kid sounds a bit odd. Maybe I am getting it wrong.
We both do 5 days in 4 (compressed hours) so we only have to pay for 3 days of childcare. I get to do fun things for a day with my kid, and the weekends are normal.