Summary
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy asserted that no world leader has the right to negotiate with Russian President Vladimir Putin on behalf of Ukraine.
Speaking to Le Parisien readers, Zelenskyy emphasized that Ukraine alone determines its future and any dialogue with Russia must follow a peace plan based on strength and international support.
He warned against negotiating without clear guarantees of security, highlighting the risks of Putin resuming aggression after a ceasefire.
Zelenskyy called for a strategy ensuring Ukraine’s long-term stability and security, beyond NATO or EU membership timelines.
It’s fucking ridiculous he has to say it out loud
Tbh a lot of people in the states are under the impression that we CAN do precisely that, because we absolutely have done in the past. But this is also kind of a whole different ballgame, in a ton of pretty crucial ways.
this is why our teachers taught us the difference between can and may (one implies ability, the other permission) because all of south america is looking at this like “fucking right dude”
As an American, I have always found our conduct in South America in particular to be utterly reprehensible.
Not only that, but we’re giving fucking BILLIONS of money to Ukraine, we SHOULD have a say so in what happens…
No we’re literally not. We’re giving them our stocks of older equipment that has been in warehouses. That equipment is assigned a dollar value and then it’s argued over as if were stacks of cash.
Yes we’re giving them money too, but when a headline says Biden authorizes $20 billion in additional aid to Ukraine, the vast majority of it is our old stuff.
you are just funneling BILLIONS into your Military Industrial Complex, which is good for the shareholder value of the usual suspects, while dropping off your used stuff all over Europe. The US are mainly helping themselves. It just happens to also help Ukraine.
Of course no one can negotiate on behalf of Ukraine. Ukraine is holding on thanks to the support of several parties, and those parties do have the right to continue or end that support depending on the conditions they see. I hope this never happens, but If the US says they’re okay with letting Russia keep the territory its gained as long as hostilities end, then they are within their rights to withhold further arms aid on those conditions. Is that the US negotiating as if they are themselves Ukraine? No. Zelensky understands that he is existentially dependent on others. He’s just reminding them not to abuse that.
You probably even think it’s one of those overisized checks that are often shown in your TV shows, don’t you.
No, but I love how some of you think “We only want the US to be the World Police when it’s convienant for SOME, but not others…”
I am so sad by how Ukraine has been handled.
The West should have been an overwhelming power against Russian imperialism. Ukraine should have been given everything from the beginning, no strings attached, with no self-imposed red lines.
They will swallow another democracy in 10-20 years and the cycle repeats.
Tactically, the plan is to make Russia bleed to death rather than temporarily paralyse it.
Maximizing the loss of russian life and draining the russian economy to the point that the population won’t tolerate any further war is the goal. It’s unfortunate that this is at the cost of ongoing war in Ukraine.
This is a solid take, but the other side of the issue is the question of how long will it take the brainwashed Russian population to realize the economy has passed a point of no return? Outside of major cities much of Russia lives in 3rd world poverty. Will they even notice if the ruble falls to zero?
Some might not notice a change in the economy, but they will notice that their sons are being taken and that they are not coming back.
Approximately 1 in 1000 Russian males have now been killed. How many more will have to die for the average Russian to say “no more” is a tough question.
they’ll give a shit once all other options have been exhausted, and people realize the next step is actual shooting war, with the bombs falling on Warsaw, Helsinki, Berlin, etc. When they realize they’re on their last legs before the big one, then they’ll take it seriously.
America is a write off, Regulatory captured by the Russian Federation / Russian Mob, Same thing At the very least until 2026 midterms. Europe is still in denial that its time to switch from butter, to guns. Literally
Please be more concrete. Who is the west? Because in Denmark we throw resources at Ukraine to support their efforts.
There is a lot in Ukraine to “steal”. It’s a large land mass with a long border with both Belarussia and Russia. They still have plenty of Black Sea border, and with proper support could have lot more. Breadbasket of Europe, plenty of nuclear plants and knowledge in that area. The Zone. Ukrainian people, one of the oldest cultures in Europe with all that that entails.
Maybe no civilian targets. But other than that totally agree. We should have put lend lease circa 1940s to shame
Or maybe the US should have stopped Catherine the great from annexing Crimea. Jesus you people.
This is arguably the whole point of the war.
For Ukraine yes, but as far as Ukraine’s allies go? Only in principle. In reality we help Ukraine because it fucks up Russia, but we don’t give Ukraine the support it really needs or asks for because of [insert litany of excuses for years of delay on new weapons systems].
Proxy wars are nasty business, and Ukraine has precious little say in any of the macro decisions. Russia and Russia’s ennemies collectively hold all the negociation leverage.
Zelenskyy’s only hope is that domestic pressure will force the West to make a genuine effort at preserving as much of Ukraine’s sovereignty as possible, hence this media intervention.
And he’s right to be worried, because the situation in Palestine shows, again, that most Western governments only stick to their stated principles when it’s politically convenient and shrug at literal genocide when it’s not. And the Russian propaganda machine is going to work overtime to make us think that any Russian concession to Ukraine would be against European interests.
Unfortunately, Trump will do exactly that regardless.
Probably already has.
Given the Russian pushes since Trump won the election, I’m guessing the deal is “stop fighting (for a bit), but any land you’re currently on is yours to keep”.
This obviously will not apply to the bits of Russia currently under Ukrainian control.
Europe needs to up it’s munitions manufacture. Can’t rely on the US for that shit any more. They’ve gone mad.
YES, please stop relying on us, it’s become a very sore spot for a lot of people.
I mean a lot of US folks seem way more smug than actually upset about it. Bringing it up to derail the conversation whenever anyone mentions US imperialism or the one-sidedness of NATO policy, as if the US would ever accept, let alone desire a position as equal among equals.
The problem is that the EU does this submissive bit because we also support the petrodollar. You’re buying the EU economy and markets with those weapons.
Imagine if we gave all of that back and aligned with China instead. It would instantly reduce the US to a regional power - fighting with runaway inflation - economically speaking. Not that I think that would be good for the EU either.
The status of the US as a superpower is founded on its alliances.
America can tell Russia Ukraine formally surrenders, and that the moon is made of cheese, it isnt going to stop anyone from fighting to protect themselves.
The fact that even western countries seem to think that there can be negotiations about the fate of Ukraine and its people, without the Ukrainian voice present, is laughable and directley supports Putin and the Russian Mafia’s fantasy-narrative.
If America and NATO pull back support, Putin will just say “fuck it” and take all of Ukraine and then do whatever he wants. Putin wants every territory that used to be Russia.
even if Nato tucks its tails between its legs and runs away from a winnable confrontation, Russia isn’t taking the whole country, they don’t have the manpower to run an occupation on a territory the size of Texas, with one of the most heavily armed and battle hardened populations on earth.
Russia already signed away any hope of an occupation that didn’t fight them tooth and nail to the death, when they decided to massacre the villages of Bucha , Irpin, and Konotop. The world saw Russia for what it was then, That event “steeled” the resistance. I’m not trying to use hyperbole or sensationalism here, I’m stating that flat out, the Ukrainian people saw that the Russians will murder every single person who doesn’t submit, and they’ve only continued that savage barbarism ever since. Bombing and Murdering people into submission NEVER works. It only gives them a reason to fight.
they weren’t equipped to do an occupation in 2022. they sure as shit are less equipped to do so now. It would be one of the bloodiest insurgencies in history. The Taliban didn’t have Leopards, Javelins, and HIMARs rockets they could put into hiding.
Western europe has no choice now, they have to arm up and possibly prepare for war with Russia, or resign, and accept Russian Dominion.
The US will do as it wills, they’re going to backslide into fighting with themselves, and evidently with Canada and Mexico at this current rate. Europe will have to take the torch, if for no other reason than that they have no choice. Russia and NATO have been de-facto at war with each other for a while.
I’ve even said that WW3 started years ago but people generally dont agree because they only associate the term WW3, with nuclear exchanges.
theres’ no turning back from this state though. the last chance we had at an “offramp” was in september 6 to 21 of 2022. at that point, the russian army had suffered a major defeat and been pushed out of over half the territory they had conquered. That was Putin and Kremlin’s opportunity to back off before this spiraled totally beyond control, instead, that door was slammed shut forever on the 21st when Russia announced a mobilization.
Now, its not going to stop until either Ukraine signs over part of its territory in exchange for NATO protection, Or the fight goes on until a government collapses. (either way just means more war, east or west) No ceasefire outside of of that deal I mentioned, will actually last, or truthfully stop the hostilities. Russian treaties are just an alternate spelling of Toilet paper
You’d think this would be a fairly cut and dry issue - the countries helping Ukraine wouldn’t like it either if another country started negotiating terms on their behalf (especially not with a monster like Putin).
Ukraine and its people should be the ones to decide their own fate.
I swear people who think otherwise must’ve read David vs. Goliath and sided with the Goliath.
must’ve read David vs. Goliath and sided with the Goliath.
Bold of you to assume that they can read, or that they have read the Bible.
In my experience not even “devout Christians” do that last one.
100%. Reading the Bible cover to cover + learning about the history of how Judaism was born out of the polytheistic Yahwism and the resulting merge between Yahweh and the chief Canaanite god El was the way I just kept pulling the thread until it all came apart. The inconsistencies between an omnibenevolent god (El) and violent massacring war god (Yahweh) make a lot more sense once you know they used to be two separate gods.
Israel gets all the munitions it wants to enact a genocide, but Ukraine has to fight for every bullet to fight for its own sovereignty against a modern day dictator. The US government’s priorities really are something.
What about the country sending the most aid to Ukraine, without which Ukraine could not continue the war, being the one at the negotiating table?
Ukraine can 100% continue fighting their invaders without the US. Also, Europe supplies more aid to Ukraine than the US.
https://www.euronews.com/2023/07/28/how-much-has-the-eu-given-to-ukraine-compared-to-the-us
Then why is Ukraine constantly upset US isn’t giving enough aid?
Also, Europe supplies more aid to Ukraine than the US.
You might not realize this, but you’re comparing a continent to a country. US is still “the country sending the most aid to Ukraine,” which I said in my previous comment.
And take their aid along with them?
What if this means Ukraine is no longer able to defend itself?
Would the US like it if another country tried to push it to the side and negotiate on its behalf on literally any issue, not even war-related?
Do you think the US would accept the outcome of such negotiations willingly?
I suspect it wouldn’t, so expecting another country to do so is pure hypocrisy.
