Americans: It’s all that gosh-darn SOCIALISM that’s causing this mess! Because socialism is when all the rich fat cats at the top keep all the earnings for themselves. Fucking dirtbag woke socialists!
And no lessons were learned that day.
Even Mangione has proved undoubtedly that he doesn’t entirely understand the very issue that radicalized him. (If he isn’t just a patsy, of course)
I think he’s just kinda an ordinary person who grew up privileged. He has fairly standard techbro style libertarian beliefs, but he also has criticisms of some of the influencers he watches, and didn’t seem to like Peterson very much. He also seems to be an environmentalist, and I think he seemed to have become more anti-corporation based on the manifesto released (obviously assuming he did it).
Him being a privileged but ordinary guy who still got radicalized reflects a lot more strongly on the plight of everyone who isn’t one of the owner class. It doesn’t matter that he was relatively wealthy, he still wasn’t one of them.
What information has come out that makes you say the last paragraph? I’m not doubting it’s validity in the slightest (I don’t think this guy is exactly an infallible source of wisdom), just haven’t seen a lot directly from him that would flesh his views out that much.
He was pretty pro-Musk and pro-Peter Thiel and certainly wasn’t a paragon of leftist thought. While being decently educated and well traveled, he seemed to have a lot of faith in technolibertarian ideals.
I’d say that’s clear from his Twitter and Reddit histories. It doesn’t mean he’s a frothing-at-the-mouth MAGA nut, but it also doesn’t mean he’s a dyed-in-the-wool leftist who understands the issues.
Further, like most people, he only became radicalized when a serious injury impacted his own life. It didn’t make him question the whole system of capitalism, just healthcare.
And all that’s fine and not meant to be an indictment one way or another about the guy, but more it’s meant to point out that like most Americans, he’s seemingly a little confused about larger issues. Which also makes sense since he’s only 26, learning about it all takes time.
Finally, I’m still not 100% convinced a bunch of this is just contrived police bullshit to pin it on a patsy, and that’s why his motives seem confused. Although I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s just lacking education and confused, like most Americans.
he seemed to have a lot of faith in technolibertarian ideals.
he did not site musk in the supposed “manifesto”.
he did site some other people, not sure who. i think that would more indicative on his position.
i have hard time believing any of this but this he is alt right narrative is secondary to his act of revolt. it aint like he can do the entire capitalist in one job. he picked his target and simple, direct message.
I know it’s probably a bit exaggerated on purpose but also in European countries it’s definitely not zero. We are in a significantly better situation than the US, that’s fot sure. Our problems aren’t remotely comparable. But also here, it can happen that certain treatments aren’t covered, also here there are (few) people without health insurance and also here people can lose their job or never find a job in the first place due to illness related issues or disabilities.
As said, much better but also definitely not 0.
There’s also the issue of waiting times - you might need care somewhat urgently, but need to either wait for multiple months or pay (or hope that when the issue becomes more immediately life-threatening they can handle it in time). Public healthcare isn’t perfect, and at least in many places still needs a lot of work.
I always dislike this take because it pretends the US doesn’t have this exact issue. I’ve known people with less than ideal insurance who had very few doctors to pick from in-network and would take months to get an appointment.
Long wait times still happens in the US. Just like it can happen in public healthcare.
That’s fair, I’m not from the US, and when talking about private healthcare I’m thinking of my own experiences, paying out of my pocket.
Pedant rant:
I take issue with ‘needs a lot of work’, though it is common phrasing. It promotes the false idea that ‘business is more efficient’ by making it sound like the public administrators are too dumb to know how to do their job.
The real issue, in most jurisdictions, is that it needs more and stable funding, and less political interference.
Well that and not to mention that politicians abroad do the exact same thing they do in the US. I know the British for instance have a Conservative Party that have repeatedly attacked their healthcare system in order to make privatized insurance seem better.
And then the issues caused by a lack of funding get used in the US to say “SEE! This system doesn’t work!”
Which is the logical equivalent of watching your friend baking pies with not enough filling and deciding to instead pay 4x the price for a pie that you won’t even get your promised slice of. Oh and the pie you get occasionally is made with the meat of other people who were also promised a pie and paid for it.
In several countries the mainstream party politicians (who are Neoliberals) have been slowly privatising healthcare by forcing the Public Healthcare System to outsource more and more of the work to the Private Sector and using the same technique as Thatcher in the UK used to privatise railroads (of which now, decades later, you can see the horrible results) - defund the Public Service and when the quality falls because of it claim that the Public Sector is always incompetent and the the Private is always competent so that’s why that Public Service had problems hence it needs to be privatised to improve.
On top of that there is the actual genuine problem (rather than artificial meddling with the Public Healthcare System to send more money into the hands of politician’s mates) that populations are aging and older people require much more Healthcare Services in average.
That sounds entirely reasonable, and pedantic ;D
I don’t mean it to imply lack of competence, and both issues you mentioned sound like they’d qualify as that “work” for me, notably would probably need legislations drafted and passed. Bureaucracy is slow, but hopefully things will steadily improve.
Notably, public institutions are gonna be inherently tied into politics, having to deal with bureaucracy to get things done and subject to the whims of politicians playing their games for influence. It’s not that public administrators are dumb, but they’re part of a much bigger system that is funded by public money, and that presumably makes everything harder.
One big issue is that, to my knowledge, there simply aren’t enough doctors. That’s not something that can be fixed just by working more on it, but hopefully it could improve with better technology and more funding!
I will also say, I think one issue that can be improved rather directly is coordination - some private institutions can give you a list of timeslots available to sign up for and receive you in your allotted time, but in other places (both private and public) you might be waiting an hour for the doctor to show up, with no information on what’s going on and three people ahead of you. Shit happens, but it seems like the systems in place are severely lacking, if present at all.
Wait times are a factor of the number of doctors though. Like in the UK private health insurance may let you skip the queue, but that’s only because there’s relatively few people capable or willing to take up the private slots. If everyone had health insurance then the “faster” pathway no longer exists (or more likely people who’re willing to pay more skip the queue).
Waiting times are atrocious here in the U.S. The earliest in-person appointment that I can get with my GP is about 6 months out. Non-urgent surgeries are sometimes take close to a year. A friend recently had to keep a bladder drain in after surgery for an extra week because there were no doctors who could do the 5-minute removal available.
Anybody who says that long wait times are unique to public health systems is lying.
The good thing is that it creates a great competition for the privates. I have a very good insurance for 1K a year. No extra payments. Can go as much as I want. Many locations included. For “small” or “quick”, I go to the private one. Saves me time and reduces waiting times for public.
I’ve lived in a couple of countries in Europe and some have Universal Healthcare systems (such as the UK and Portugal) but others such as The Netherlands and Germany have Mixed Systems with Health Insurance but highly regulated and were some people can get Health Insurance from the state.
You’re not going to go bankrupt from the treatment or get treatment denied in countries with UHC.
However if you lose your job or never find a job in the first place due to illness related issues or disabilities you’ll almost certainly end up on benefits which again can be better or worse depending in the country.
I would say things have been getting worse all over Europe (personally I think it’s exactly because there’s been too much copying of shit from the US), especially when it comes to the level of benefits for poor people being sufficient (the house prices bubbles all over the place and the lack of building of social housing have made this a massive problem in most countries), but that’s not the same as simply going bankrupt from medical bills because you’ve had an accident, ended up in an emergency ward and got a life saving surgery.
So, no one in those countries became homeless and bankrupt because of an illness and lost their job? I am asking genuinely because I wouldn’t know.
This is hyperbole. Healthcare cost might be covered, but there are a lot more expenses with being sick. Social support and housing support in the UK is laughable. Good luck if you cant work because of disability. The hospital will keep you alive…and then discharge you to the street.
Still better than America though.
True … even here in Canada social systems are not as good as they could be … but imagine trying to access shitty social services AND PAYING FOR MEDICAL SERVICES… or worse being in over your head because of medical debt!
Met a homeless guy once who had had his jaw broken over some change. Even he was able to go to the hospital to get fixed up. It didn’t solve his myriad other problems but at least even he could get that taken care of.
Any system which would have turned him away should be burned to the ground and the people who built said system should have the flesh flayed from their bones, slowly.
But how is access to medical and mental health treatment and options for it? Is there a ton of variety?
Does UK have any social security disability or retirement other than what is relied upon by an employer? Just wondering.
Yeah there are a bunch of benefits you can claim from the government: https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/family/benefits-check/
Healthcare is also not tied to any job or anything.
No, it’s an exaggaration. According to StreetSmart Australia 14% of people became homeless due to becoming unemployed suddenly
With that said we do have MUCH better social welfare programs here in Australia than the US, though there is always more that could be done
When my dad was diagnosed with late stage prostate cancer they assembled a team for him, got him all the tests and scans and began treatment essentially immediately. Uncle with leukaemia was basically the same experience. He had a bone marrow transplant in addition to all the regular chemo stuff. Total bill came to $0 but they do gouge you for parking. Need a joint replacement? You’re gonna have to wait, but for life and death you get the treatment you need pretty quick
In Japan if you work full time for a larger employer, you pay into “shakai hoken” (societal insurance) this pays you like a third of your salary if you get injured and have to refrain from work for awhile. (This is at least partially paid for by your company because you can only legally be fired in Japan if the company proves beyond a reasonable doubt you were either belligerent or the company couldn’t survive without you)
Americans: … OH YEAH! … now lets count how many Aircraft Carriers each country has!! … U! … S! … A! … U! … S! … A! … U! … S! … A! … pulls a muscle from over exerting themselves, has to go to the hospital and pay for treatment
I know it would be covenient to accept this meme as true, but it very much isn’t.
Just like insurance companies in the US don’t cover everything you need, sometimes even lifesaving treatment, the same (though less extreme) happens in nearly all public health systems.
I say this as someone who has gone through this and become tubefed and deaf as a result.
I don’t think there is a public health system when you are just expected to fork over half a million for an operation. Those insane healthcare prices are uniquely US phenomenon
There are public health systems that just won’t offer that operation. Or you’ll have a 1.5 year waiting list. So in the end, unless you’re rich and pay for private insurance, it comes out as the same.
(Edit: since someone thought my take is because I’m american and don’t understand. I’m european, have lived most my life in europe, this is from lived experience)
People in Australia do experience medical bankruptcy. It’s incredibly rare now. But it’s true. But it used to be so much worse before we had a public health system. And health outcomes were worse as well. And it cost more.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-18/bob-hawke-what-did-australia-have-before-medicare/11124180
Yeah, that happens sometimes. But in this case the price of an operation will be drastically cheaper.
I had this situation in Germany, there was a minor operation I needed to have which was not life threatening so the one that insurance covered had a waiting period, so I decided to go pay out of pocket and it was around 800 euro. The cheapest price I could find in US for it started at 11000 dollars.
Having lived in two countries with universal healthcare, that meme is absolutelly true and you’re the one bullshitting.
The most “extreme” it can get in such systems is that they won’t pay for very expensive treatments (i.e. the kind of stuff that costs a million dollars per shot) if a person can keep going with cheaper ones even if they’re not as good.
Even then, sometimes they will if it’s actually worth it (as in: for something that’s a cure, not for something that just keeps the patiet going and is only 10% better than the next best option whilst costing 1000x more).
That’s “your quality of life won’t be as good if you have a chronic disease that makes your life miserable and the best treatment in the market is insanelly expensive because they’ll only pay for a not as expensive one”, not “death panels”.
People in those countries absolutelly aren’t going bankrupt due to being denied life-saving treatment and having to pay for it from their own pocket.
As for any complains you might have heard from people in countries with universal healthcare, them complaining about it is like people in Scandinavia complaining about public services: relative to what they have there are bad parts, which is something altogether different than it being bad relative to the World and when it comes the healthcare the US is 3rd World when it comes to results delivered relative to the amount spent in it.
PS: For avoidance of confusion, by Universal Healthcare I mean countries were the State provides the Healthcare and you get it without paying, not the so-called “Mixed Systems” that also exist in Europe (for example in Germany and The Netherlands) and which have Mandatory Healthcare Insurance for all residents, though much more regulated than in the US and with a Public Provider for the less well off. Mixed Systems do have some of the problems of the US System and massivelly depend on the strength of local regulations and the seriousness of the Regulator to not decay into the same kind of situation as the US since the Private Insurance Companies there have the very same natural tendency to shaft their clients as the ones in the US and only the local regulations stop them.
Sorry then.
I guess me living my entire life in a system with universal healthcare, being denied treatments that could have prevented me going deaf and needing a feeding tube is all in my imagination.
The treatments for these werent extreme. It was a fairly simple drug therapy that costs around 5’000 Euro per year and is sold in my country.
It just isn’t on the list of drugs covered by public health insurance. As I’m surviving on 12k per year disability benefits, I could not afford the treatment.
But just because it never impacted you you assume my experience doesn’t exist, because you have the privilege that the system never didn’t work for you, so you assume it works for everyone.
Exatcly they dont know shit. While american healthcare system is clearly fucked there are many problems in european healthcare ( very country dependent tho ) ranging from lack of qualified doctors and long waiting times to very expensive treatments not covered in eu for some reason ( the one ive seen the most being uber expensive often experimental treatment where you usualy have to go to america ).
I’m talking about Universal Health Care systems (for clarity: totally free healthcare for residents in that country), not Public Health Insurance systems.
Europe is unfortunatelly also riddled with the latter system and having lived in countries with one kind and countries with the other, they’re quite different and the system with Insurance is invariably worse in terms of denials of coverage as well as cost (also because nowadays they all have laws that force every resident to have health insurance, which as result is more costlier than before those laws - as I saw first hand when I lived in a country with such a system when such a law came into effect), whilst UHC tends to have longer waiting lists (think 1 or 2 years of wait for some cirurgical procedures).
Absolutelly, some of the absurdities of the US system are also present in the so-called “Mixed” Systems (i.e. the ones with healtcare insurance but more regulated and with a public option for some) and if you look at the kinds of governments in those countries for the last 3 decades, you’ll notice they’ve been invariably neoliberal mainstream parties (setting up such systems is part of the broader tendency in Europe to privatise just about everything that has been going on since the 80s and was copied from the US).
IMHO, except for the long waiting times, the problems with Healthcare systems in part of Europe are the result of them having been transformed to become more like the US system in the last 3 decades.
People in those countries absolutelly aren’t going bankrupt due to being denied life-saving treatment and having to pay for it from their own pocket.
The meme has an “or” in it though. About 20% of Canadian bankruptcy is due to health and illness. Here in Canada the maximum disability is ~1500cad a month, which might pay your rent if you live in a really really cheap area. Part of the reason it’s bad like that is because it is so often compared to America, and often greatly exaggerated like in this meme.
