It could just as easily be framed that women are raised and socialized to have unrealistic expectations for a partner.
I once asked my male partner to wipe down the bathroom counter because my grandparents were coming over. He did a bad job. I got upset about it. He said my expectations were too high. He had left a dead bug on the counter.
We absolutely do not have too high of expectations.
He did a bad job.
Sounds like his parents did a bad job at raising him.
You should probably align with him on what “clean” means. It probably means “cleaner” to him, whereas you meant “nigh impeccable” - your definition isn’t bad; there’s just a mismatch between both your understanding.
….theres a dead bug on the counter and you call this nigh impeccable?
I’m never eating dinner at your house
I’ve seen guys who had no business even being in human society getting dates. Not sure “Women expect too much of men” is the issue here.
Women do most of the raising of children. Is it more likely that women raise their boys in a way they know will make them undesirable as an adult, or is it more likely that they push their daughters to do better and unintentionally raise their standards too high?
Standards of toxic masculinity are very often upheld by women as much as men. Growing up, one is told “Boys don’t cry” by mothers as well as fathers, and then mothers wonder why their husbands are emotionally closed off.
Society is broken. Less broken than it used to be, maybe, but still broken.
i think its more that we focus more on women currently than we do men, and have been for at least 50 years. It was less of a problem due to the way the older social dynamic went, but as that’s shifted int he last 20 years, it’s gotten worse and worse over time, and now we have people like andrew tate who are the vultures of this problem.
Both can be true at the same time, because, you know, there are a lot of very different people.
I remember someone writing that the bar for men to be “good men” is in hell. That always stuck with me.
The bar to be a good partner is different from the bar to be a good person/man though.
I dislike the conflation between the two because it implies being unable to have a partner implies being a bad person.
Take a hypothetical man with severe mental impairments necessitating 24/7 care: Is it impossible for him to be a good man? Yes, that is a more extreme example but it just goes to show that there is a difference between the two. Being a good partner requires different skills than “just” being a good man.
Caught me, I’m a self-hating man, definitely not a guy who is upset about societal standards applied to men giving us fucked tools for dealing with society in a civil manner.
Men are bad at cleaning => sexist
Men are not taught as children to clean => not sexist
Men can’t emotionally regulate => sexist
Men are not socialized to emotionally regulate => not sexist
Women can’t change a tire => sexist
Women aren’t taught to change a tire => not sexist
Women are emotional => sexist
Women are taught to share their emotions => not sexist
There’s a big difference between making a statement about society and making a statement about humanity.
The concept that generalising statements are still applicable, even if they are not correct for every single person in the generalised group, is a bit complex, but if you sit down and think hard about it you might get it.
Could you elaborate on why you feel one or more of those statements is harmful? These sorts of statements were very helpful to me growing up, it was pivotal in realizing there wasnt something wrong with me, but rather i just needed to seek some extra instruction. Seems like the one on emotional regulation might be very helpful to you as well, as it seems to be limiting your ability to communicate here.
I would say intent really matters because a lot of times when people sort of step away from the issue in that way, it’s really just a thinly veiled way of espousing their beliefs without taking any blowback.
As opposed to modern women, who are sterling paragons that men would be crazy to not marry.
Lmao at the crazies replying to you as if they couldn’t bear the idea that the argument is empty and could be flipped on its head.
… What argument?
Neither OP nor GameChild has made an argument. They’ve just said things.
“Cheese is delicious.”
“No, it’s not.”
“Damn, my argument was flipped on its head.”
What are you talking about?
Mainly referring to the growing disconnect between men becoming more socially conservative while women are becoming more socially liberal. There’s a growing demographic of men, at least in the USA, that are being welcomed into movements like MGTOW and Passport Bros, while women on the left are going on TV and social media talking about how they would rather run into a bear than a man, men are useless and have no place in society. Meanwhile what’s in it for men? Get married, get divorced, wife takes everything, takes the kids, takes the house, even if they are the ones initiating divorce most often.
Men are being raised to not be desirable? Which men? The upper 10% of men that 90% of women think they have a shot at marrying because they sleep with that 10% that has a rolladex of girls. Meanwhile those women often have 10 guys in the friend zone ready to go when they hit the wall at 30-40 and finally want to settle down with all their relationship trauma.
men are useless and have no place in society.
You are projecting your insecurities, my guy.
Like, you’re over here complaining about hypergamy at the same time that you’re whining about this very pedophilic “hit the wall” business. What’s wrong with being 35, exactly? Won’t you be 35 one day?
Woman are also not being properly socialized (although in my rant, I argue this is an intergenerational problem).
The problem is everyone is sexually frustrated and no one can find anyone they’re hot for who is available.
Previous generations handled this with singles bars and one night stands, but Millennials and Zoomers are so overworked and underpaid they just can’t be bothered to deal with other people’s bullshit, men or women.
Hence where all the lonely people come from, and the plummeting birth rate.
Yeah, This one here.
Same post. Different comment.
Any individual who make blanket comments about whole sections of society will loose my respect pretty quickly.
Substitute women, blacks, Asians, Latinos, the Dutch, and just about every other subsection for the word “male” in that statement and this thread would be having a completely different conversation.
okay but we’re not talking about another subsection… we’re talking about men. you can insert whatever qualifier in front that makes you feel better about it, but you wouldn’t be making this comment if they were talking about another group. this is a problem among young men. we need to be able to talk about it if we want anything to change.
obviously if you insert a marginalized group in place of a dominant one it will be different. that is how that works, yes. this type of comment only derails from genuine concerns.
There’s nothing genuine about your rotten misandry. Take it, and yourself, out of here.
misandry? sure buddy, I really hold some deep hatred for men. or maybe the messaging men grow up on is toxic and ends up leading to women facing actual discrimination and violence. no such thing is happening in the other direction. women avoiding men for their own safety may hurt, but it’s not the same thing.
and why are we pretending that there’s some anti men agenda here? because a woman wasn’t careful enough with her phrasing, she didn’t say “some” men? everybody knows the numbers on inter gender violence. nobody is saying you are personally responsible. but anytime women express that men make them feel unsafe, every man in the room makes it about him. I love men, but I need to approach carefully to ensure they haven’t been Tatepilled before I get close. many women are just sticking with their girlfriends. why is this controversial?
it’s really frustrating to me honestly. I’m a trans woman. I’ve been on both sides of this conversation, and I’ve been on both sides of the equation. I’ve been a problematic man. I’ve been a healthy man. and now I’m not a man. I know how painful it is to constantly be perceived as a threat, and it hurt even more because I didn’t even want to be a man in the first place. but this argument comes up anytime a woman talks about her experiences and resulting outlook, and it’s just not productive because ultimately women are the ones in danger, while men are lonely and upset. not every man is a threat, but it’s enough of them that women need to be careful, and most of them got better at hiding their problems rather than actually going to therapy. women would love just as much as men to stop having these gendered associations and live and love freely. men need to hold each other accountable, we need to change the way we teach them, and importantly, they need to listen when women talk about these things instead of talking over them.
It was implied (if not outright said, which I believe they did but whatever it’s a possibly made-up sister from a random person on the internet.)
Am man.
I enjoy living alone.
I enjoy owning my house and keeping it clean and maintained.
I enjoy cooking at a pretty high level.
I don’t particularly enjoy doing my laundry, but it doesn’t hinder me.
I do not enjoy yardwork, so I outsource it to a landscaper.
I enjoyed being a single dad.
I enjoy watching my daughter making her way in the world.
I enjoy it when my daughter calls me to regale me with tales of her life. I enjoy it even more when she calls me for advice.
I enjoy stability.
I enjoy the silence.
I enjoy the autonomy.
I’m pretty boring.
Age has definitely begun to take its toll on my youthful looks, especially as all my remaining teeth seem to be rebelling all at once.
I do not adapt well to changes in my daily routine or my domestic environment.
I save money. I don’t much spend it.
But I enjoy traveling whenever I feel like it to wherever I feel like to see whichever friends I please.
I do not own a bidet or an electric kettle, just a dystopian stovetop kettle.
Life has repeatedly, loudly, aggressively taught me that all of this is woefully insufficient.
I am not a desirable adult.
Please, take the bear and leave me be.
