I reject the premise that right-wingers can be anarchists. I don’t care what they call themselves. Anarchism is a left-wing movement, fundamentally.
A bit debatable on the individual level but that’s likely what it would lead to. Some ancaps are weirdly anti-corporate though. They think somehow big powerful corporations were created by the state. Which is true in some cases but clearly not in others.
All corporations are created by the state. Corporations only exist because of the laws that create them. Without that special legal status it’s pretty much impossible to grow to the sizes most corporations do.
If they didn’t blatantly steal ideas from the left and twist it to support rich people, where would they get ideas? Have you stopped and considered how mentally bankrupt they are?
Kind of seems like that’s what they’re getting at but I find this linguistic deception so irritating that I can’t even tolerate the implicit suggestion here that the top dude might be some kind of anarchist.
The people the meme is referring to call themselves anarcho-capitalists, it’s not even implicit. It’s why they have the blue line flag and Gadsden flag, where normally these would be contradictory they lack the critical thinking skills to not polish boots with their tongue.
Back The Blue supporters jamming to Rage against the Machine for decades then suddenly getting upset at the band.
Same vibes as when they got mad at Green Day for trashing Trump. Like they never paid attention at all.
But a punk band trashing a right-wing president? That’s never happened before!
Having “less government” eventually crosses a threshold into having “no functional macro government at all”.
What you do after that threshold is entirely open ended.
Anarchism is not owned by one political group, the ideation of what comes next is. (In leftist groups, collectivism via willful participation, focused on meeting the needs of all members of the group. In right groups, what amounts to libertarian bartering and more insular communing.)
Anarchism is about opposition to all oppression and unjust hierarchies. If you are pro-capitalism, pro-patriarchy, pro-white supremacy, or pro-nationalism, you aren’t an anarchist. Sorry.
And if you aren’t any of those things, what affinity do you have with the political right?
Are you asking me? Or being hypothetical?I’m none of those things, nor an anarchist, I’m just capable of reading the definition .
If that was directed at me, Kinda shitty you assumed that about me as i made a complete abstract statement, without showing my favor.
- a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority or other controlling systems.
the organization of society on the basis of voluntary cooperation, without political institutions or hierarchical government; anarchism.
My previous comment aligns, especially with the second definition.
Many, many on the right want far less government and less of anyone telling them how to organize their communities. they absolutely want a new version of the world with small and increasingly absent governance. The fact that they are shitty doesn’t discount their desire for anarchist changes in macro governance.
Frankly, your descriptions of what you believe “true” anarchism proves my point. A right aligned person could come in and confidently describe their key points as they believe just as well.
MY core point was that it’s the transition to micro governance, free of external systemic pressure is not isolated to leftist ideals, edit though, it could be! In your post collapse world.
Having “less government” eventually crosses a threshold into having “no functional macro government at all”.
What you do after that threshold is entirely open ended.
I think that is where you leave what anarchists define as anarchism. It doesn’t end there, it’s not open ended. If you end up with some town or camp that is ruled by a leader and/or a priesthood and police force to keep law and order, it’s not anarchism. If you can own land and impose your vast property rights so others don’t have anything, you’re not anarchist.
Exactly how a voluntary collaboration of anarchists is supposed to work to avoid quickly growing small systems of power again (chiefs or warlords) I never figured out so don’t ask me. Best answer is that “because the people already overthrew the existing power structures they will have an easier time preventing future power structures”. So I think they assume the belief system is powerful enough so that once people are indoctrinated, they would reject any systems of control again. How such an indoctrination is achieved and maintained would be my next question.
Of course there are theories like anarcho-syndicalism. And I think in generally anarchism is understood as merely being of a mindset that any authority has to justify itself or be abolished, but necessary authority is not. So you’d still pay taxes for roads and schools.
more ramblings
Personally I believe that without AGI and a powerful and benevolent and incorruptable mind a la “The Culture” any ideology is just window dressing and temporary. If humanity wants someone to watch the watchers, we need to build the perfect watcher that can do that.
How is it fundamentally a left wing movement? I like lib left ideals, but fundamentally speaking, How can you have centralized economic planning as well as anarchism?
You’re thinking of the liberal/conservative spectrum as a line, which is common simply because political parties have a stranglehold on things and you vote for representatives instead of directly voting for policy. The side effect of voting for representatives is that it inherently ties social and fiscal policy together, because you as an individual don’t have any choices that diverge from that left/right line.
But political policy is really closer to a graph with an X/Y direction. Social policy on one direction, and fiscal policy on the other. You’re thinking of liberal social and financial policy, which is communism. Socially liberal but fiscally conservative is anarchism.
Ancaps aren’t anarchists any more than buffalo have wings. Anarchism is the rejection of hierarchy, and capitalism is inherently hierarchical.
I don’t necessarily disagree, but I need clarification how capitalism is inherently hierarchical. I know that for example starting from a state where everybody has the same “capital” things tend be be distributed unequally because more capital grows at a larger rate than less capital. But this is more something that emerges from capitalism rather than an inherent property.
There is sort of a word missing for people who believe in inequality, that the weak should be ruled by the strong and might makes right, who believe in authoritarianism. I mean besides insults like bootlicker. Because ancaps would just flock to the nearest warlord / land baron.
Amazon’s Human Resources Department buys all the land around where you stand, kills you of you violate the NAP by trespassing, and then barters for your unending indentured servitude in exchange for food and water.
Anarcho-capitalism is like taking the worst parts of feudalism and chattel slavery, but with fewer human rights.
You can not be an anarchist while supporting the hierarchical system of capitalism. Full stop.
Yes, well, you can not be an anarchist while supporting the exploitation of animals, either, but look around you.
No one said they are the “true enemy”. US “Libertarians” (another stolen term) are largely irrelevant and just propped up by billionaires like Peter Thiel. They are the court-jesters of the oligarchs and deserve ridicule for being so naive and not noticing it. “Natural allies” for what? In boot-licking?
I’m just talking about word definitions here. If you support hierarchical dominance of some humans by others, you aren’t an anarchist by any reasonable definition.
That doesn’t mean we can’t cooperate on certain issues, though of course I’ll have to use my judgment as far as whether that collaboration does more harm than good, as I do in all cross-ideological collaboration. But our ideological differences are not very trivial so I don’t agree that we are natural allies either.
If you’re tired of having this argument just stop calling ancaps anarchists. It’s not accurate and even big papa Rothbard admitted as much in unpublished writings.
Jesse plemons was awesome in this scene, but I’m not sure if the character is someone leftist anarchists want to model themselves after lol
Meth Daemon: “Paris Commune of 1927 or Shanghai Commune of 1928?”
Wagner Moura: “Neither. They both deprived the aristocracy of their rightfully contracted private property.”
Meth Daemon: “Die Heretic!”
I was surprised by how much I enjoyed that movie.
Oh? I saw the trailer and figured it was some bs like that 2012 apocalypse movie. Didn’t think it would be a fun watch.
Thanks! For some reason (and I admit I was barely paying attention when it was released) I had the impression it was to some degree a right-wing propaganda film. I’m guessing if it’s being memed here it’s probably not. 🙂
Will check it out!
Why is the Gadsden flag placed alongside a thin blue line flag? Those symbols are mutually exclusive. I would also strongly question the intent of the valknut symbol.
I feel like we shouldn’t bully the dead husk of niche ideology. It must feel terrible to have virtually zero support for your politics and frustratingly pace around in the anonymous niche web communities because everyone in real life would just laugh.
It must be hard to have such views and grasp at straws daily reading some same scraps of Wikipedia with examples where for 56 days the system worked as intended.
I’m not gonna feel sorry for a bunch of dudes who fantasize about being the next Kyle Rittenhouse.
It must feel terrible to have virtually zero support for your politics and frustratingly pace around in the anonymous niche web communities because everyone in real life would just laugh.
I mean … ancap ideology is not about having support of this kind anyway. Which matches stoic philosophy somewhat.
There are flaws to ancap ideology, even terminal ones, but you are not pointing them out.
I feel like we shouldn’t bully the dead husk of niche ideology.
Would you mind clarifying exactly what “niche ideology” you are referring to? It’s not immediately clear to me.
EDIT (2024-08-10T19:15Z): I think this comment of yours clarifies that you are referring to ancaps?
Why is the Gadsden flag placed alongside a thin blue line flag? Those symbols are mutually exclusive.
You should tell that to the endless sea of car bumpers and flagpoles I see flying both those flags and a Trump flag.
I live in Southern Oregon and it’s gotten to the point that I’m actually a little surprised when I don’t see them side by side on pickups or flagpoles. On the way through Camas Valley or somewhere between the 5 and the coast, IIRC, there is a flagpole that has those, a thin green line flag and a Trump flag, just to really confuse everyone.
It’s truly baffling. Perhaps not that they don’t seem to understand, at the most fundamental levels, what they are so passionate about, but that they are so eager to let everyone know.
Standard libertarian/ancap combo. Don’t tread on me (the Gadsden flag), tread on my enemies (the thin blue line flag). The valknut signals who those enemies are (blacks and immigrants) just in case the thin blue line by itself wasn’t explicitly racist enough.
Standard libertarian/ancap combo.
The presence of a thin blue line flag and a valknut symbol indicates that they are neither libertarian nor ancap.
You would think that, but no, I see the gadsen flag flying with the the thin blue line flag way too much
Did Nazis co-opt the valknut? I know it’s Norse, so it wouldn’t surprise me if they did, just couldn’t find anything from some quick searching.
It makes sense when you realize that AnCaps are uneducated Anarchists who haven’t read political theory (they generally swap as soon as they do)
Ancaps have different weights of the main criteria (which are the same set).
Both employ voluntarism and, well, lack of hierarchy. But there’s such a thing as voluntary hierarchy. For ancaps voluntarism takes priority here, for the rest it doesn’t. All the differences stem from that single point.
Other things aside, I think ancaps think about guns more often, so, eh, the pic would be inverted.
I don’t fully understand how an anarcho-capitalist would put the “capitalist” part into practice under anarchy. Capitalism isn’t sustainable without regulation, imo. Whoever has the monopoly on force will have the monopoly on control.
