The experiences trans men and women have with misogyny will never not be fascinating to me. Like, for the first time ever we have this huge sample size of people who have experienced how their gender presentation affects how people interact with them, giving tangible proof of misogyny in action. And it can’t just be swept aside with ‘MaYbE tHe wOmEn JuSt miSuNDerStOoD’ or ‘mAYbe tHe mAN diDN’t MeAn iT LiKE tHaT’. I mean idiots will still make idiot arguments but at least it chips away at them a little bit.
Hello it’s me a trans woman. I knew before transition about some of it but never really understood. When I was masc I didn’t realize how much of it was basically hidden in plain sight because of how I learned to socialize. After transitioning though omg it’s everywhere. I’m in Seattle right now where I don’t have to try too hard to pass and still get treated at least base line okay. Even then I still use my masc voice more than my femme voice because people take me more seriously when I do. Like there’s a cultural acceptance of trans people here but if I behave more masc I get the privilege of being “one of the boys” even if I’m visually in full femme mode. It’s all so weird
I told one of my friends that I’m being looked at differently in crowds now, and he just said “no you’re imagining it”.
Many people just do not believe what trans people tell them. At all.
Women aren’t believed, are you a trans woman? If so it could be either that you’re a woman or that you’re trans.
(I hope not to misgender either but) bro, she knows. No need to mansplain it, read it again:
Many people just do not believe what trans people tell them. At all.
I’m female presenting. I’ve known people who thought I was a cis woman for months, and I don’t keep being nonbinary or trans a secret.
When I read actual cis women’s accounts of misogyny, and also trans women’s accounts, I can’t relate. I don’t get shut down the same way. Somehow, despite others perceiving me as female, I kept the tiny part of gender presentation that tells people to sit down and shut up when I’m talking as if I were a man. I don’t understand what it is, but I still have it the same as before I transitioned.
I would love to know what it is so I can share it, but I can’t tell why people respect me as much as they would respect a man. It’s bewildering.
Religon is probably what initially does this to people’s brains
Indoctrinating children into religious systems of arbitrary hierarchy gives little boys god complexes and makes little girls into property.
Depends on where you are from, but the sort of thinking that gets people into religion gets people into misogyny even without religion in my experience.
I feel bad for female-presenting people having experienced being treated worse than their male peers. I didn’t grow up religious or anything, but I can sense where I could be perpetuating that hidden misogyny myself.
For example: In work and social life, I’ll give my phone number away to people I meet. But I’m not interested in relationships, so I’m far less likely to give it to women, since I don’t want to give anyone the impression I’m making romantic advances by doing that.
I’m pretty sure for men that aren’t outright misogynist jerks or bullies, it’s stuff like that where they feel as if they might be viewed as awkward providing professional favours to women when they wouldn’t think twice about it for their male peers. That leads to those experiences that women find themselves unable to receive those opportunities to get ahead in their career, or aren’t listened to, or have to advocate their position more when career advancement seems to fall more naturally to men.
For example: In work and social life, I’ll give my phone number away to people I meet. But I’m not interested in relationships, so I’m far less likely to give it to women, since I don’t want to give anyone the impression I’m making romantic advances by doing that.
As someone who is relatively active in volunteering/local politics, I’ve been thinking about printing up some old-fashioned “calling cards” (like business cards, but not for a business). Maybe you could do the same, and seeing that giving out your contact info was such a routine habit of yours that you had a ready-made solution for it would stop women from getting the impression that you were leading them on?
…then again, maybe not. Hmm.
wow, that’s really out there for being bee movie erotica
Yuuup. Woman in engineering here. I once had a supervisor whose behaviour I thought of as normal, but two guys I worked with separately reported him to HR for bullying after seeing how he treated me.
It’s funny, I had many years with almost no career progression, now my boss is a woman and I’m having to get used to the idea that bonuses and promotions are things that actually happen when I work hard.
My wife was marked down on her PhD because she “wasn’t nice enough” to her supervisor. All the assessors gave her top marks, but her supervisor vetoed them.
Please give her a hug from me. And if you happen to get a chance to stab her supervisor … well, I’ll not say do it, because that would be illegal. But sometimes accidents happen …
I also am glad you got the support. I’m constantly reminded of a friend in college who was going through an electrical engineering undergrad with me. She got all the material so easily and literally dragged me through the classes. I wouldn’t have passed some key topics without her help. Fast forward a few years and I’m getting my PhD and I decide to see what she is up to: she ended up quitting her PhD program because of the insane abuse and misogyny she experienced in the department and instead changed to a masters in music. This was a woman who could easily have made field changing discoveries but was shut down because of close minded individuals. It still makes me rage and is the reason I work so much harder now to ensure my female colleagues and employees have an equal voice at the table.
As a man, it is insane to me that this is real.
I have a difficult time imagining malicious intent towards women by all these people. But given how common these stories are, there is something true about it. I just don’t understand why.
Is it really an unconscious cultural thing? Or am I naive about how my fellow men (I guess maybe women too) feel towards women?
Something in me refuses to believe that these people knowingly and intentionally harm women. But it sure as hell looks intentional.
I am not defending them. I am expressing my struggle with the reality of this shit.
Selection bias, the people who don’t discriminate aren’t causing harm so you don’t notice them but since they don’t speak up they aren’t helping either, so the jerks are still setting the tone. The solution is to not just do the right thing but actively call people out the jerks.
I agree with you there. As someone in programming, I don’t quite have the opportunity to fight these things when they happen because… There are no women. (obviously linked to this) but I can’t call out behavior when it happens when I am not around. But I am happy to report that I have been vocal about my support of trans people and fought against transphobia, even at work. Obviously I am not happy it is needed.
So I am trying to see and support victims of discrimination.
Personal experience from when I was newly an adult, and chatting with a female university classmate and somehow got on the topic of games and I started explaining what Steam was, because I just subconsciously assumed, her being a woman, didn’t know.
She politely pointed out I had mansplained to her.
I am very thankful to her for the experience as it’s stuck with me and saved me from making a fool of myself on more than one occasion since.
I’m sure there are possibly small things like this, that you may have been been “guilty” of in the past.
These men, are engaging in similar behaviour cranked up to 1000.
However, it’s even more malicious with them, because it’s not like the last 30 years or so haven’t had constant and increasing messaging (in the anglosphere, at least) about feminism and ways in which women have been treated unfairly.
So, it’s not like they haven’t had the opportunity to reflect, and change.
In summary, yeah, it is kind of baffling, but I will say society, while largely better than 30 years ago, still does have structural as well as conscious and unconcious bias towards women.
So I’m not surprised people like this exist.
I hear you but what cranked it up to 1000?
Like I always saw my mom as a extremely competent person, as a child she was flawless. Nowadays, I see her flaws but I am flawed, so if my father and any person I ever met. I am impressed by my sister and how I can be like the person that she is in many ways.
I am talking about my direct family because these women had a lot of influence on me. So I wonder, what was their experience like to think so poorly of women? Not blaming the women in their social circle for being “bad”, I just wonder wtf happened. Where does that belief come from? I don’t think they all had great experiences with their male role models but horrible ones with their female role models. So what is it?
I hear you but what cranked it up to 1000?
I unfortunately am not versed enough in the topic to give a full answer on this, I’d guess upbringing, then personal experiences?
I suppose it’s similar to people who are arseholes in general.
Sorry for the very underwhelming answer haha
Something in me refuses to believe that these people knowingly and intentionally harm women. But it sure as hell looks intentional.
Most people don’t do any of this “intentionally” in the sense that they are aware of the harm they cause. It doesn’t even enter the realm of moral consideration.
To many, there is a genuine belief of superiority that is entirely subconscious. The easiest example is classic mysogyny in a relationship - the woman is “emotional” and therefore the man should be the one to handle “business”. That’s not just 1950s oppression. Some variation of that thought process is shockingly prevalent across generations.
That man doesn’t really think he’s harming his woman. He thinks he’s helping, by being the man of the house. That same logic applies outside of romance. “I am more rational than she is, therefore I should talk now and she shouldn’t.”
That’s not a thought. That’s just a foundational belief that spawns all the other thoughts.
Ever been in an argument with another adult, and a child joined in with some naive half-informed emotional take on society?
An adult usually placates the child - explains, briefly, why they’re wrong - and returns to arguing with the other adult.
That’s how a lot of men see women by default. As inferior, naive, ill-informed, emotional creatures. Not consciously. Not intentionally. Many mysogynists genuinely seem to have the same intentions as the adult to the child - to placate and educate.
But its fucked up, and it’s important to acknowledge that it simmers under he surface. The reason all of this is so complicated and messy is that it is so hard to see mysogyny for what it is.
You genuinely can’t know if a single interaction with a single male was an example of mysogyny, because sometimes humans just condescend to each other. Sometimes humans are just shitty to each other.
But women experience so many of these experiences in aggregate that they can’t give the benefit of the doubt to every man they meet, especially when the man himself might not understand his own implicit biases.
You’re simply not paying attention, because you don’t have to. Not to be harsh. I went from male to female and how I’m treated is night and day. You’ve never tried to see how the other side lives, and when you heard stories that went against your experiences you dismissed them like your mind is trying to do right now.
Why does it happen? Nurture. History. Patriarchy. I could blame a lot of things. It’s mostly that men never get treated the way they treat women.
I’ve heard in my university that a lab manger/ head was trying to always get with the female students, and would ignore male ones, or would not allow male to volunteer in his labs. It’s very close to bordering SH. Most other labs with male PIs don’t really care about either gender
I understand now how people can believe sexism is not an issue. Do you not have any people who are women close to you who have faced this professionally?
Honestly, no. I am working in programming. There are no women. We both know why and the answer is sexism.
But even on the way into the job, I have only twice experience someone telling a woman to not do IT that was when I was a student. 1. A classmate, and everyone gave him a lot of shit for it. Seriously, I don’t think he had a friend in the class afterwards. 2. A father telling his daughter. And there I jumped in and challenged him on it.
It is difficult to spot sexism in a different department.
Edit: I misread the question. in my friend circle, I can’t recall any woman complain about sexism at their work, but a former female friend in china. The women in my life had issue with their work but I don’t recall specifically sexism. Tbf, a lot of them work in jobs that are “women jobs” like caretaker.
2.nd edit: I just recalled 1 case where someone complained about sexism to “me”, friend of a friend and I was present. But honestly in that case, it was really bs. Girl admitted that she didn’t know what she was doing and admitted that she didn’t want to learn and then complain why everyone else got real work in the internship… So not the ideal case to talk about the very real sexism in society.
If you don’t mind what do you mean that you understand now how people can believe sexism isn’t an issue?
I want to stress that it is an issue, I just have a difficult time believing some of the shit because it seems so comical to me. What kind of person is that way?
Something in me refuses to believe that these people knowingly and intentionally harm women.
One thing I think that goes too far is people either think misogynists represent 0% of 100% of men. It’s neither. There are some men that are extremely prejudiced against women and will cross the street just to bother them, and then there’s a huge slice of men that support women as best they can.
I mean, if nothing else, incels definitely exist and they would treat the women in this situation wrongly. Do you think no one is an incel?
I want to say that “unconscious cultural” doesn’t exist, but I don’t think I’m right on it. You can easily build consciousness on those topics and thus easily spot the cases with risk for any wrongdoing, and with how common and well-known they are, it just feels more like “willingly ignorant”.
Assuming that it is cultural, as it seems like your comment kinda assumes that. Like it seems you are saying, it was cultural but by now it is kinda intentional.
I would argue “willingly ignorant” is bad but also not making it less “unconscious cultural”.
If they were willingly ignorant but also no cultural sexist, they wouldn’t be an issue.
So well you have a point, but I would say that the unconscious cultural sexism could lead to willfully ignorant and you would kinda expect it.
I am not saying, you are fully wrong about the willingly ignorant part, I just don’t think it would remove the cultural part.
Edit: ups edited the wrong comment. Sorry
I transitioned to male 15 years ago, I was already well into adulthood by that time so had experience to compare. 100% agree with the post. It was night and day. (I’m not in Stem; just generally in life.)
The weirdest thing was some of the individual people who changed how they treat me over time, for the better. After I started transitioning. Its cool they are so trans positive and affirming I guess. But if you can turn that shit on like a tap why not do for everyone?
Now as a man I struggle to notice when I’m getting special treatment. Even with my prior experience. Sometimes I have been oblivious for years until I finally clocked it or it was pointed out by a woman.
It has made me much more respect cis men who manage to have a keen eye on sexism. Especially those who are masc presenting. It is so easy to not notice. It’s very comfortable. People are polite. You have good luck. To all the guys commenting here that it doesn’t go on around them: it sure as fuck does.
I think people get defense around the idea of “male privilege” because they think it’s getting them something extra. It’s more all of the shit you don’t have to deal with.
Exactly. As a teenager I hated the concept. Partly because I’d been bullied for failing to perform masculinity as a child, partly because I was not happy with the whole boy thing, but also because all the shit so many cis men say.
But when I transitioned I saw it. And I saw trans men starting to receive the privilege I was losing.
Sometimes we should just, I dk, listen to what people that have different experiences to us say. I figure, I have no idea what it is like to question my gender, so maybe I should shut the fuck up and listen to what people who do tell me. The problem is, a lot of men do not listen.
Is there one gender friendlier to trans people? Just wondering. I feel like women may be, but that is my bias from my attitude towards men lol.
shut the fuck up and listen
But dont need to turn off your brain. There are plenty of dumb trans people out there and you can find a trans person to represent any position.
Is there one gender friendlier to trans people?
I doubt it. It depends. I mean, women are friendlier, in general. It depends. And trans men are more likely to be “passing” living stealth. So its a different thing. I hardly know what anyone thinks of trans people unless I ask, because 99% of interactions I have are as presumed cis.
One thing I know is that everyone loves men. Cis men, trans men, doesnt matter. People value men. This is why all kinds of anti trans horseshit specifically targets trans women. In the UK recently there was a ruling about the definition of “woman” as it relates to trans women. But no definition of “man”. Why! Why are only women subject to such shit. Trans men are implicitly pulled in and adversely affected but women are the ones who have the law about their bodies.
In the UK recently there was a ruling about the definition of “woman” as it relates to trans women. But no definition of “man”. Why!
I think that’s also largely because it’s women who feel vulnerable with men in their ‘intimate’/‘private’ places like bathrooms or sleeping spaces - not so much for men. So questions like, “will the prison rules make this person share a room with me on the basis of their self-identification as a woman” are more of a concern for women than for men.
And of course efforts aimed at elevating women in e.g. STEM. If you have a women’s tech group, or a women’s gaming group, giving special help to women because their gender puts them at a disadvantage, do you, should you, must you, include trans women? That’s going to come up about women not about men. Men’s groups of these days tend to be much less relevant.
I agree the ruling should have considered both genders equally though. Actually, does it not? Or was it just the discussion, not the actual ruling, that was all women-focused not men?
Trans masc person checking in. Might be my bias or community or something but I get way less misgendering by guys under 30 than basically any other demographic. They seem to pick it up faster and be really chill about it in ways that a lot of the women in my life really don’t seem to get as comfortable with.
But there is definitely a part of my brain that sees men as being of my tribe in ways that women are not. Like not to say that I don’t have incredible women in my life whom I have incredibly close bonds with… But there’s definitely some kind of cognitive distance that has always kind of been there.
I think trans femmes might experience a similar situation with feeling accepted by women ( Or maybe not because TERFs tend to look at them as a threat) but to answer your question about if the bros are alright… Yeah, they good.
Not him or transmasc, but as a trans woman, gender doesn’t influence how bad someone is, but it does influence how they are bad. Transphobia (directed at trans women) from cis men often looks like disgust and direct violence as well as oversexualization. There’s also an element of seeing themselves as knights in shining armor to cis women. From cis women it’s more likely to look like ostracization, backstabbing, and calling for men’s protection.
If you noticed that that’s how cis men and women tend to treat cis women they hate, congratulations, you’ve figured out why one common refrain from trans women is that transmisogyny is a form of misogyny.
I think this is a huge problem even with people that would say about themselves that they respect women, or even that they are feminist. A lot of men on the left suffer from a total absence of introspection. They may not want to treat women differently, but then they just repeat patterns they have learned without any reflection, and end up doing just that - talk over women, mansplaining to them and so on. It’s the same with any privileged group of people.
Men/white people/other privileged groups: if you do not reflect your actions and question your own thought patterns and influences, you will likely discriminate against others. Because the wold that influences us is total dogshite. Strife to be better.
Now as a man I struggle to notice when I’m getting special treatment. Even with my prior experience.
Thank you for sharing this. I’m usually in communities where - as far as I know - people treat women equally. (Or in different culture communities, so that’s a whole different area.) So I tend not to notice if there’s special treatment for men. This will remind me to be more aware.
preach. it is for reasons such as what you stated that i fully give my blessing to women transitioning to men. level the playing field by any means necessary. this is survival.
i try to embrace my male archetype because i think the worlds needs strong men, but i have come to understand the feminist perspective and i don’t think there’s any conflict with masculine men being empathetic. as a matter of fact, i think a truly confident man doesn’t need to worry about being vulnerable and is in touch with their feelings. the macho american culture is not who we are. it is an aberration directly resulting from abrahamic religious values being hijacked by sociopaths to pave the way for authoritarianism and further subjugation of women.
and i think it’s up to all of us to break these insecure macho idiots down into kneeling before a new age of humanity. make them heel to understand that they were weaklings all along.
Just to be clear: women do not transition to men to level the playing field or materially benefit themselves.
Studies of post transition income show that trans women go down (sometimes drastically) whereas trans men tend to stay about where they would have been. You get benefits of being treated as male but then you have discrimination and other problems as a queer/trans person to balance it out. So while I can report on the moments when socially and structurally I am treated as a man, it isn’t the total experience if my life. I still am trans. There are significant problems associated. I wouldn’t reccomend it as a career enhancer. To say nothing of how unpleasant transitioning just in hopes of getting a raise would feel.
I agree with regards to masculinity.
