Is it me or is this a uniquely American experience?
I loved in quite a few countries and I’ve never seen this kind of absurd behavior. Granted, in a man, but I’ve never seen a man cut off a woman like that just because she’s a woman, and I’ve never seen or heard comments even remotely about someone being “exotic”. I’ve heard questions like “ohh, and where are you from?” in genuine curiosity, which is fine, I’ve never noticed overt racism like that.
Edit: to clarify, I am not talking about myself. Yeah I had idiots treat me like that and you just ignore them. I’m talking about never seeing this behavior in groups. I’ve lived in Mexico (loooasds of high testosterone machismo there) and even there I’ve never seen anyone that a women so disrespectful just because she’s a woman. Same for skin color or sexual discrimination or whatever. I’m sure it’s out there but in Europe, Mexico, Canada, I haven’t seen it.
Come to think of it: I have seen some of it. A guy who thought that at in company martial arts classes he could grab women’s breasts. I kicked him out immediately, I could not fire him unfortunately as that was not my call. That guy was of course a loud mouth American.
This just makes me think more and more that this may be a problem in all countries, just that it’s a huge issue in the US.
I live in America and haven’t noticed this as a man, I assume the misogynists have enough self awareness to keep it somewhat out of sight. The last time I noticed something inappropriate, the person quietly left the company a few weeks later. I have no idea if it was related to what I saw, but I wouldn’t be surprised.
I 100% believe that it happens, it’s just not visible to me.
Usually its not explicit, but patterns happen can be seen. Sometimes its not obvious unless you are specifically looking for it or the one directly receiving the treatment.
Trans experiences are just one case where those patterns become a lot more obvious. I remember someone telling a story about how often transitioning, someone’s father and brother started giving football explanations to her as if she were new to the sport when she’d been just as involved for her entire life. Its not like they were intentionally trying to be malicious, but they clearly subconsciously decided “woman needs to be taught how ball game works” even when its someone who they previous thought of as a man and didn’t treat like that.
Of course cis women point out that same kind of treatment. And often people just think they’re imagining things.
Sorry, but this sounds exactly like what male privilege is. Assuming that it doesn’t happen near you because you haven’t noticed it.
Ask your female friends what sorts of sexism they genuinely face regularly and I think you’ll learn a lot.
Granted, i’m a man
you haven’t noticed racism and sexism because you are a male who’s the “proper color” for the region in which you reside.
male privilege and white privilege are often misunderstood to mean like “special privileges” and poopoo’d because plenty of white men struggle to get by in this world, but that’s not what it means.
it means the privilege of ‘being taken seriously’, the privilege of ‘benefit is the doubt’, privilege of ‘basic respect and decency’.
it also has the benefit/drawback of ‘privilege to be blind of misogyny/racism’. I believe you wholeheartedly when you say you’ve never seen it, but that’s the “privilege”.
The responsibility you hold in return for this “privilege” is you must believe the words of peeps who don’t share this “privilege” when they tell you their experiences. after all, why would you see these things? How else would you experience them when you aren’t directly a part of them?
'course you wouldn’t! That’s fine! Normal! why would you see them? those things aren’t directed at you. that’s really all the “privilege” is!
back to responsibility, be careful not to dismiss the words of people who have direct experiences of racism and sexism just because they don’t match your own. remember, these things aren’t directed at you!
have a good one
Dear God.
No, not what i meant.
I meant that I never saw other people behave like this in public, in group meetings, in the day to day lives.
I’m not dismissing anyone, don’t out words into my mouth. I was literally wondering if this issue is more prevalent in the US than in other countries because I haven’t worked in the US. Every time I read about this its the US.
In companies that I have worked or have owned I have never seen this behavior and I have never been made aware of it. My wife has never experienced.iy either. Haven’t seen this in Mexico, not in Canada either, not in Europe either. Mind you, these are personal experiences but I GOT EYES. I can see if someone behaves like an asshole and the only one single person that does come to mind in mexico, was a loud mouthed American who thought it okay to grab women’s breasts.
Stop nit with the male privilege thing. I don’t trample on your work, don’t trample on mine either
I’m trying to tell you that privilege affects us all. im saying that words like ‘i don’t see it here’ are a form of dismissal you need to be wary of using. Im not “trampling on STEM”, im explaining that preconceived notions of fairness you have can color your perspective, because you have not been forced to see otherwise. when i said “be careful not to dismiss”, i meant that your words were toeing the line towards dismissal. i can see upon reread that it could be taken worse than i intended, so i’ll be even clearer in saying “you must be careful not to”, not “you’re being dismissive right now”.
my whole point is: privilege is a double-edged sword and despite trying, your position in society means you cannot see these things as well as those who are forced to see.
Do you fundamentally disagree with this concept? Do you believe that what I’m saying is possible? I’m not coming at you from a high horse, im saying these things as someone who has reevaluated their own perspective with privilege in mind and wants to share what they’ve learned.
Women work twice as hard for half the respect
Is this unique to women? Do men experience anything similar in women-dominated fields? I’m not actually sure what these may be; teaching, childcare, hair stylists? I realise this may make me sound misogynist, but I’m really clueless.
I know I’m gonna go on a hot take that looks like is deflecting the problem but I experienced bullying and seen it and it can be worse than how they treat women. I think is related to a play of power the alpha beta shit existed before it now just has a name. Is all a play of power over others an male social status in the eyes of other males may times is defined by the amount of vaginas they have, had and would have access to. I think is all related and women get the short end of the stick a lot more than men but some get get the stick that says “fuck your life haha”. Of couse some men take it entirely with women for some reason too so with them women get both sticks.
And (knowing the internet i say this beforehand) please with this I do not mean to do a whataboutism argument. Women do have a problem here as well as many other problems we all need go help with.
This is anecdotal, but male teachers get a special treatment if the school staff is mostly women.
For my anecdotal story, I’ve never been treated worse than when I was doing IT for a hospital and working around nurses, who were almost exclusively women. God it felt like I was in a mean girls movie or some campy coming of age story about bullying.
I don’t think hospitals do count, being burned out could be an official requirement for the job and you wouldn’t notice a difference.
Unfortunately I’ve seen men tend to dominate the conversation in women dominated fields as well, but only if they are misogynistic. I work a lot in the fiber arts industry and more often than not it is assumed I don’t know anything because I am a man and humble, but I quickly prove my worth with my 20 years experience and it’s wonderfully collaborative. Then I see so many men come in and say, “Look I knit a sweater! This is easy! Give me praise!” and weirdly enough there are enough people out there that just feed those egos. I completely blame the men in this case, but this problem wouldn’t be so prevalent if everyone was just willing to shut these idiots down.
Men in fem dominated fields get the glass escalator to promotion.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_Escalator
Propublica has some useful peices, but it might take an ebsco search or three to pry loose that dangerous and embarassing level of ignorance about what living is like.
Watching sociology videos can be a bit of a grind, but tastes better than foot-in-the-mouth.
Is that bias confirmation or is it confirmation bias? I get them mixed up.
I feel for OP. I really do. I want everyone to be treated as equals, honestly.
However, does OP even realize that their anecdotal experience doesn’t even remotely satisfy the (heavy) burden of proof for their biased hypothesis?
In a blind study, everyone in a room going silent when a trans person talks is not necessarily experimentally a 1:1 to everyone in the room going silent when a biological male talks. MANY people that have transitioned (whether they want to admit it or not) have a noticeable difference in their vocal timbre than their biological counterparts. Maybe people went silent because they were fascinated by or fixated on the unusual timbre of the OP’s transitioned vocal cords. We will never know… and some of us realize that correlation does not equal causation.
For example, you wouldn’t conduct a scientific study where you’re attempting to show the differences between how males and females are treated and choose to have one of your control subjects be a trans male. It’s just different despite how inconvenient and hotly debated that truth is.
Additionally, OP was in the same department for years and then transitioned. So, naturally people would approach a more experienced person for help or advice regardless of perceived sex if they knew that person was there longer than them.
Obviously there are differences between how men and women are treated…but OP seems to be using the worst possible anecdotes to provide proof for their hypothesis without correcting for these sometimes subtle inconsistencies. Maybe OP thinks they pass as a male a lot more convincingly than they actually do.
Everything they are describing is well supported by solid evidence that you can look up. Further, in conversations of what would drive women out of stem, the welcome harshness and sexism pushing people away is the core of issue.
Ultimately this dismissive attitude towards a well known and understood phenomenon speaks to the arrogance of those that disagree with the well established reality.
You are going out of your way to poke holes in someone describing a very rare and valid view that demonstrates the discrepancy gender presentation gives in lived experience, and how it follows well tested sexist trends by holding their tumblr post to the standard of a scientific paper. You are so desperate to preserve your warped world view that the severity of sexism in STEM isn’t as big of a deal as it is made out that you have taken a genuinely ridiculous position.
Do better.
You are going out of your way to poke holes in someone describing a very rare and valid view that demonstrates the discrepancy gender presentation gives in lived experience, and how it follows well tested sexist trends by holding their tumblr post to the standard of a scientific paper.
I used a scientific approach in the science memes community. You don’t seem to care about actual science. You’re going out of your way to believe pseudo science in the name of being kind to someone.
Do better.
Have you ever utilized a case study in your work? The value of research is in having a variety of things to pull from. All you’re doing is writing up the considerations page and slapping on the cover.
Whats your agenda in doing so?
I used a scientific approach in the science memes community.
The issue is that your application of “the scientific approach” is to dismiss the entire field of research up to now, and demand that OP prove their point from first principles. It’s not a reasonable response to what they posted.
What we’re seeing here is an example of how it’s possible to be both right and very wrong at the same time.
You don’t seem to care about actual science.
…and the second issue is that you’re now attacking the integrity of the people calling you out on it, for no clear benefit other than to put them down. Go back and read Rule #1.
The opposite happened to me when I transitioned. When I was perceived as a guy, if I was in a meeting, people didn’t instantly fall silent if I spoke, but if they tried to overtalk me and I just kept speaking, they would eventually give way. I transitioned 8 years ago, and from the earliest days of my transition until now, if someone starts overtalking me, they will just keep doing it even if I don’t stop talking. The only way to stop them is to vocally call them out and ask them to be quiet until I’m finished.
Similarly, I used to be seen as one of the two “tech guys”. The person that people would come up to and ask for tech advice to avoid calling the internal helpdesk. After I transitioned, they started coming up to me and asking me where the other tech guy is.
My career has stalled since I came out. I’m in a trans inclusive country, in a trans inclusive workplace, and I transitioned so long ago, that most people don’t know that I’m trans or simply forget. But since coming out, the various shoulder taps in to project opportunities and the like just don’t happen anymore.
Maybe people went silent because they were fascinated by or fixated on the unusual timbre of the OP’s transitioned vocal cords.
It’s a nice theory, but it’s somewhat strange how my own experience as a trans person transitioning from male to female had the opposite impact. Did people start overtalking me because they were fascinated by my timbre?
Additionally, OP was in the same department for years and then transitioned. So, naturally people would approach a more experienced person for help or advice regardless of perceived sex if they knew that person was there longer than them.
Again, it’s a nice theory, but in my case, they stopped approaching me. And even the ones who don’t know that I’m trans don’t approach me that way, because I’m not seen as one of the “tech folk” anymore, despite not losing my experience when I transitioned.
but OP seems to be using the worst possible anecdotes
Similarly, you are using the least likely possibilities that contradict the first hand experience of folk directly in these scenarios to fit your pre-conceived notion of what is happening.
Yeah, the OPs post and mine are anecdotal, so you shouldn’t take either of our experiences as universal truths. But your takes aren’t even anecdotal. They’re suppositions.
Thanks for sharing. All these experiences are very illuminating regarding the lesser impact of socialization, too. Like, I might have thought my female colleagues had just been told to cede the floor so many times they didn’t often speak at meetings. And that could still be adding to it, but here are the same individuals with the same habits getting starkly different treatment.
Even knowing these trends from countless other stories and statistics, hearing each additional experience helps keep it in mind and see more often when it’s happening.
I like to frame socialization as a lifelong process. People raised female often describe these experiences at formative years. And I’ve seen many trans men struggle to find their voices as adults.
But as a trans woman I and many I’ve spoken to had multiple socializations. Effeminate male: more or less bullied into gender conformity, including things like being mocked for passivity; gender conforming male: taken seriously and encouraged to speak up more; and adult female: treated like you’re bad for speaking up and routinely discounted and underestimated.
Oh and there’s the secret fourth socialization: trans woman: basically it’s female but when you assert yourself you’re accused of male socialization.
