let’s gooo
I’m plastering this discussion with “I think”, “as far as I know” and the likes exactly because I’m not fully knowledgeable on the matter. If I’m getting stuff wrong you could correct me instead of simply telling me I’m wrong.
That is a fair point. I’m just always surprise how confident people discuss matter they (sometimes they even admit) know little about. So what do you think gender is?
I’m not Trans and I’m not Religious so I have no actual way to tell. Only someone who is both could actually have a meaningful say in this discussion, and even then it’s just the opinion of one person and it wouldn’t represent the whole group(s). What I personally think (and again, this might be entirely wrong as I have no direct knowledge of it), is that they’re people who felt something wrong with their life and gave it an explanation that lets them live better. That explanation might be true or not, but as long as it makes them live better and doesn’t hurt others (and this is where unfortunately most Religious people fail), it doesn’t really matter for it to work and be accepted as a natural part of society.
Ok, so you making a more broader almost philosophical point, that religious experience and gender identity different than hetero are both results of people feeling something wrong (in a complex sense) with their life and come up with an explanation (difficult to find the right words), acceptance of which made them feel better. Did I get your point this time?
personally know no Trans person and it’s genuinely hard to talk about this online without being mistaken as one of the thousand different camps who hate Trans people for one dumb reason or another, so my knowledge about the subject is limited to this, unfortunately. If you know/think it’s different I’d be glad to hear why.
I’m not trans, but one of my best friends is. I would think that the best way to understand would be to just meet trans folks and talk. You sound like you come from a genuine point of being curious and not understanding something that you don’t know which is always ok, and I’m sorry to hear that you had bad experience talking about it online. But that is a nature of a sensitive topic. You can ask me, I might help to clarify some things. But keep in mind, I’m not an expert so verify the things I say and also I don’t speak from my own experience.
So what do you think gender is?
The idea I got so far is that it’s kind of a social construct of “ways to be perceived by yourself and the world” that is, so far, typical of people born (or at least, raised) with a specific sex. If your preferred way of expressing yourself is mostly conforming with what “the world” expects from your biological sex you’re cis, otherwise you’re trans. That’s roughly how I thought of it until now, tell me if I misunderstood something.
Ok, so you making a more broader almost philosophical point, that religious experience and gender identity different than hetero are both results of people feeling something wrong (in a complex sense) with their life and come up with an explanation (difficult to find the right words), acceptance of which made them feel better. Did I get your point this time?
Kinda, I guess? It’s still not there because I know there’s people who don’t feel Gender Dysphoria for their current sex but only Euphoria for another, but you could say feeling like something “could be better” is still feeling “something wrong”, in a sense.
I’m not trans, but one of my best friends is. I would think that the best way to understand would be to just meet trans folks and talk. You sound like you come from a genuine point of being curious and not understanding something that you don’t know which is always ok, and I’m sorry to hear that you had bad experience talking about it online. But that is a nature of a sensitive topic. You can ask me, I might help to clarify some things. But keep in mind, I’m not an expert so verify the things I say and also I don’t speak from my own experience.
Yeah, it’s definitely the best way, but I don’t really know any trans person and I don’t think there’s any in my area, or at least none who came out. And even if there was one I wouldn’t really want to ask them delicate questions like this unless I’m very close to them. I know it’s a very delicate subject even to touch online, I imagine irl people would feel even more pressure.
Your concept of gender sounds alright. I would just disagree with the term prefer, if you think about yourself and your gender - there is just a way you express your gender that is no really conscious. So I personally would say: that if your gender expression and identification is closer to your biological sex you that is called cis and if your gender expression and identification is closer to the opposite biological sex that’s called trans.
Kinda, I guess? It’s still not there because I know there’s people who don’t feel Gender Dysphoria for their current sex but only Euphoria for another, but you could say feeling like something “could be better” is still feeling “something wrong”, in a sense.
Interesting view. I feel like I’m the wrong person to discuss this with, since I’m also neither trans or religious - so we kind of like two fish talking about the desert in this regard. But from my talks with trans people that is not how they experience their existence. But I might have something to bring the concept of being trans more closer to you - in your thoughts you projection of yourself aligns with your biological sex - imagine it would not. Imagine in your thoughts and dreams you have different gender than the one your biology suggest.
Yeah, it’s definitely the best way, but I don’t really know any trans person and I don’t think there’s any in my area, or at least none who came out.
I can recommend contrapoints, she has also a video on trangsgender ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdvM_pRfuFM ) and there are interviews out there were she talks more about her personal experience. She is rather philosophical so you might like it.
For me personally, I had no strong opinion on trans people - besides that I didn’t really understood it from personal experience point of view, since my gender seems not that important to me - I experience myself mostly just as my self, but I guess that’s the cis experience and that everyone should do what they want as long as they are not hurting others. Than I worked together with a trans girl on a few projects and we became friends and the interesting part for me was, that from the beginning I had the vibe with her I have around women. Which helped me to put my thoughts around that topic into places.
Your concept of gender sounds alright. I would just disagree with the term prefer, if you think about yourself and your gender - there is just a way you express your gender that is no really conscious. So I personally would say: that if your gender expression and identification is closer to your biological sex you that is called cis and if your gender expression and identification is closer to the opposite biological sex that’s called trans.
I used “prefer” because I figured it’s also a matter of preference in how would you like to be treated (as a male, a female or whatever), but yes, I don’t really “think” about how I want to express myself so I guess that’s mostly subconscious.
But I might have something to bring the concept of being trans more closer to you - in your thoughts you projection of yourself aligns with your biological sex - imagine it would not. Imagine in your thoughts and dreams you have different gender than the one your biology suggest.
I’ve heard about it and tried thinking that way, but I really can’t imagine it from an outside perspective. As you said, I don’t really feel like my gender is that important either, so I guess that’s common for cis people. Like, I’m a male, but if I was born female I think my biggest “annoyances” would be the expectations society would have on me, and it would just be (probably much) harder to go against them. I imagine I would’ve just turned out tomboyish. …or at least that’s what I thought before I learned there’s a lot of trans people who don’t experience Body Dysphoria and/or aren’t interested in surgery, then I got really confused and figured I’ll probably never know for sure unless I meet an alternate universe version of myself or something.
I can recommend contrapoints, she has also a video on trangsgender ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdvM_pRfuFM ) and there are interviews out there were she talks more about her personal experience. She is rather philosophical so you might like it.
I’ll have a look at it, thanks!
Than I worked together with a trans girl on a few projects and we became friends and the interesting part for me was, that from the beginning I had the vibe with her I have around women. Which helped me to put my thoughts around that topic into places.
The vibe, you say… that’s interesting, I’d be curious to see if I ever experience something like that.
