I still like this meme(sh.itjust.works)

posted 2 months ago

Stomata@sh.itjust.works

linuxmemes@lemmy.world

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blackjam_alex@lemmy.world

111 points

2 months ago

Installing old Linux applications IS a problem. They’re available only if someone repackaged them for newer distros. If not they can’t run anymore because of dependencies mismatch.

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unhrpetby@sh.itjust.works

43 points

2 months ago

This is a good reason for static linking. All the dependencies are built into the binary, meaning it is more portable and future proof.

We don’t need flatpak for this!

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milicent_bystandr@lemm.ee

26 points

2 months ago

And harder to fix vulnerabilities in a linked library, and more bloat in both storage space and memory used.

Trade-offs!

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unhrpetby@sh.itjust.works

30 points

2 months ago

I’ll take a program that isn’t getting updates anymore or simply wasnt working in my modified environment using slightly more ram and storage over it not working at all.

I have firsthand experience with videogames made for one flavor of Linux not working on my machine due to dependency hell.

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milicent_bystandr@lemm.ee

5 points

2 months ago

For occasional programs, or things like games, I’ll agree. For most software I use, no thanks.

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36 points

2 months ago

Flatpak time

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Chloé 🥕@lemmy.blahaj.zone

9 points

2 months ago

NCSA Mosaic flatpak my beloved

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highball@lemmy.world

10 points

2 months ago

Just supply the dependencies with a chroot. That’s how we did it before distro maintainers started including the 32bit libraries into the 64bit OS.

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Sheridan@lemmy.world

7 points

2 months ago

I think this meme is referring to when Apple ripped out 32bit support in macOS a few years ago. I couldn’t use Wine anymore to play old windows games on my Mac after that update for example.

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OpenStars@piefed.social

6 points

2 months ago

But… to be fair, are there any versions of Linux that let you do this either? Replacing the OS, especially jumping from 32 to 64-bit, is kinda a HUGE deal!? I’ve had numerous problems switching Linux distros, and some issues switching Mac software, and they seem more or less the same to me? - if anything, it was easier for me to switch on a Mac?

I don’t know about Wine and older games - I would guess that recompilation would be in order. I could see if they jumped the gun specifically for the newer (at the time M1) series, that such tools were not yet ready by third party apps as Wine. Though Mac switches chip architecture so exceedingly rarely that it is barely an issue, long-term, and if anyone using Linux switched architecture it would similarly require recompilation as well?

I feel like I am not expressing myself well here, but I’m out of time to edit and hopefully you see what I mean:-).

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highball@lemmy.world

4 points

2 months ago

When distro maintainers started building and shipping 64bit versions, they didn’t include 32bit libraries. You had to make a chroot for a 32bit distro, then symlink those libraries in among your 64bit libraries. Once distro maintainers were confident in the 64bit builds, they added 32bit libraries. In the case of Windows, Microsoft created a translation layer similar to WINE called WoW64 (Windows on Windows64). Apple is the only one who said, fuck you buy new software, to their customers. Rosetta is the first time Apple didn’t tell their customers to go pound sand; probably not by choice.

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OpenStars@piefed.social

1 point

2 months ago

Macs back then made a big deal about being backwards compatible, unlike Windows, at the time. Now the roles have switched, as you say. The transition from Steve Jobs to Tim Cook was rather impactful to the Apple ecosystem.

Still, the situation in the meme describes one event that happened 6 years ago, where Apple moved from x86 architecture to the M-series, all of once in the last 20 some odd years of computing.

But Linux has zero problems? (Again, according to the meme) I feel like I’ve occasionally had some problems with Linux, just as I’ve had problems with Mac, and between the two of them I’ve had far more issues with the former than the latter.

To be fair, emulators such as Parallels and VMWare Fusion are not free, while Linux is open source FOSS. But for perhaps that reason… why has nobody built a version of Wine that works on a 64-bit Mac (they have btw) and includes native support for the older 32-bit architectures? Like, isn’t this a failure of the Wine approach (again: FOSS architecture) to keep up with hardware, more than an actual problem with using a Mac? If somebody were to build that, then the problem would be solved? (Which again, it already is, by Parallels and VMWare Fusion, just not FOSS.)

In any case, I just don’t see the humor here, when all I see is the tribal “in-group good, but out-group bad” philosophy on display. There are plenty of issues with Macs - but this is hardly one of them, it seems to me. Especially when after digging in sufficiently deeply to understand it, you find that it’s actually a deficiency with Wine, not Apple.

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highball@lemmy.world

1 point

2 months ago

You gotta work on your Linux kungfu. chroot has always been around. You can install any distro, any version side by side. Now there is even DistroBox. Also, Apples switch from 680x0 to PowerPC to Intel, (Arm the exception), every time, Apple customers were told to pound sand. Imagine you spent 10 to 20 thousand dollars on hardware and equipment and software, shit adds up (it’s not just buying a Macbook Pro for these artists), just to buy it all again. That’s why Apple has always been called out for this. Windows forced updates are hilarious and have only gotten worse and worse over the years from what I hear. Linux can be updated live with no reboot. All my servers are setup like that and my work dev machine. Even the kernel gets updated live. Obviously Android and their forced data collection apps would be a huge no no for a Linux distro.

I’d say these aren’t just “problems” with the OSes. Problems are something you can fix yourself or find a workaround. You can’t work around Windows update, thousands and thousands of dollars of investment into the Apple eco system down the drain every time Apple switches architectures, or Google’s mandatory spyware apps.

Like, isn’t this a failure of the Wine approach (again: FOSS architecture) to keep up with hardware, more than an actual problem with using a Mac?

Dude, you think this is about 32bit libraries. It’s about way more than that. Apple customers paid money for OSX. Why would anybody think FOSS is responsible for fixing the problem Apple knowingly created and not just one time. Keep in mind, Microsoft solved this problem with their WoW64 translations layer (like WINE, but for 32bit Windows on 64bit Windows). Linux has a couple solutions, chroot or rebuilding and repackaging the binaries. Obviously there could be a 32bit to 64bit translation layer for Linux like Windows but why when you have chroot. Same thing can be done on other Unix-like OSes. Apple should have done this for each architecture change. There was no reason to f over their customers each time. Also, keep in mind, I’m not an Apple user, not ever. So it’s them you have to convince that they, “weren’t screwed over; over and over again”. Seriously this was a joke in the late 90’s. Now it’s just reached bullshit levels. Rosetta was the least Apple could do.

Especially when after digging in sufficiently deeply to understand it, you find that it’s actually a deficiency with Wine, not Apple.

WINE should fix this for Apple? WINE doesn’t fix it for Windows or Linux or any of the BSD’s or any other Unix or Unix-like operating systems out there. None of them. If Apple wants to use WINE as the solution, then maybe Apple should pony up some of the money they made on OSX sales and pay some WINE developers and make WINE a first class citizen in OSX. Valve needs WINE for their OS, they came out of pocket; engineers and money. Apple can do the same. Especially for how much their customers pay. There is no justification for dumping this on FOSS to fix Apple’s mess.

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OpenStars@piefed.social

2 points

2 months ago

Apple should pony up some of the money they made on OSX sales and pay some WINE developers

That does sound nice.

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mrvictory1@lemmy.world

0 points

2 months ago

Wine can run 32 bit apps on Catalina & newer with WoW64, only native 32 bit prefixes got busted. Ironically I had one such prefix on Mojave, now the Mac has only Linux but the OS + Wine prefix is backed up twice.

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milicent_bystandr@lemm.ee

2 points

2 months ago

I thought wine on Linux pulls in a load of 32-bit libraries so it still works on 64-bit systems.

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OpenStars@piefed.social

0 points

2 months ago

Yes, but apparently those libraries aren’t already present on a computer by default? So the Linux user has to download and install them.

While on a Mac, the user also has to download and install an emulator, such as Parallels or VMWare Fusion (or dual-boot with an older 32-bit OS). So it’s downloading and installing something aka extra work either way.

Except that emulators for Mac aren’t FOSS. Except Wine that while there is an unofficial 64-bit version that works on Mac, it does not support 32-bit games (on an M-series chip, emulating a x86 one). At a guess, someone did not bother making such bc Steam now exists that works so well?

But this meme suffers from inaccuracies by (1) pretending that nobody has ever had any problems with Linux, ever, and (2) that this singular event once in the past 20 years of computing, and this even 6 years ago already, makes Macs “bad”, and (3) somehow blaming Mac for the decision of the Wine developers to not make software that would work across both software (running Windows on a Mac) and chip architectures (running 32-bit programs meant for x86 chips on a 64-bit M-series chip instead). Why is that a problem with a Mac, especially if you don’t need or want to run such programs, or if you do, then you are willing to download and install an emulator rather than solely use Wine, which those devs have not made work in this case?

This meme is not very insightful, and instead perpetuates the stereotypical “in-group good, but out-group bad” philosophy, imho.

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6 points

2 months ago

You got to build them shits from source.

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bestboyfriendintheworld@sh.itjust.works

10 points

2 months ago

First step install the old ass compiler version this can be built with.

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Monstrosity@lemm.ee

4 points

2 months ago

I almost never have that problem! I feel like everything is gcc or cmake or whatever.

But I’m a dabbler, not a pro, so, my old-as-dirt compiling experiences are like, tome2-gcu (a total banger, btw).

Also, The Dabbler would make for a great Batman villain.

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grue@lemmy.world

5 points

2 months ago

Nah, skill issue. Get gud and resolve the dependencies manually. 🤓

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ch00f@lemmy.world

6 points

2 months ago

It’s actually an ongoing problem with closed source Linux games. Devs don’t want to update, and don’t want to open source.

A lot of the time the Windows version will play better through Proton/Wine.

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highball@lemmy.world

4 points

2 months ago

Just use a chroot. That’s what SteamRuntime is. That’s how we handled 32bit libraries on 64bit Linux distros prior to distros including them for gaming back in the day.

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pmk@lemmy.sdf.org

1 point

2 months ago

Time for nethack.

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fallingcats@discuss.tchncs.de

3 points

2 months ago

Distrobox would like a word, or so I’ve heard. Haven’t had to use it yet, as the AUR has pretty much everything.

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tiny@midwest.social

3 points

2 months ago

It’s gotten significantly better with containerization technologies like oci containers and flatpak. Yes it uses more storage, but the drive space pretty cheap

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onlinepersona@programming.dev

2 points

2 months ago

nix solved this by modifying LD_LIBRARY_PATH to point to the desired dependency and/or modifying the binary itself.

Anti Commercial-AI license

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