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0 points

2 days ago

You’re oversimplifying history by equating Second Temple-era zealots with modern Zionists. The contexts, motivations, and methods are completely different, and ignoring that weakens your argument.

Oh really. Like what, be specific.

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spujb@lemmy.cafe

1 point

2 days ago

Hurray! I get to be specific.

Context
Zealots fought against occupation by Rome, while Zionists emerged in response to antisemitism and the rise of nationalist movements across Europe.

Motivations
Zealots were religiously driven, while Zionism is largely a secular nationalist movement.

Methods
Zealots relied on insurgency and rebellion against an occupying empire. Zionists have used political lobbying, immigration, colonialism, and apartheid rule to ethnically displace Palestinians.

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0 points

2 days ago

The goal of Zionism is to establish and maintain a Jewish state in the land of Israel. Employed terrorism, murder, political maneuverings, and genocide.

The goal of the Zealots was to establish and maintain a Jewish state in the land of Israel. Employed terrorism, murder, political maneuverings, and genocide.

Zealots were religiously driven, while Zionism is largely a secular nationalist movement.

Are you saying they have the same goals but the “motivations” are different? That doesnt make sense to me. Nor do I agree that one is secular and one religious. The basic law in Israel was modified by the zionists to say specifically, “National rights in Israel belong only to the Jewish people.” Explicitely excluding Muslims. A “nationalist movement” would include non jews. Therefore Zionism is not a secular movement.

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spujb@lemmy.cafe

0 points

1 day ago

Not continuing this nonsense conversation, but let me add some context to your dogwhistles and outright bullshit for the mods and anyone else watching. Also, it’s hilarious how you can’t cite a single thing to back up your claims 😭🤣.

Zealots didn’t commit genocide, and no credible scholar says they did. You’re just making things up. The Zealots used violence and rebellion, but nothing they did comes remotely close to the ethnic violence carried out under Zionism. If you have a credible source (you don’t lol) go ahead and share it. (For the record, they did use terrorism, but that’s not genocide. Learn the difference.)

Zionism was secular from the start. Here’s a direct quote to shut this down:

“The modern Zionism that emerged in the late nineteenth century was clearly a secular nationalist movement. The most extreme secularists were openly contemptuous of Judaism or the Jewish religious tradition, thinking that Judaism had turned the Jews into a passive apolitical people, which is a state of mind from which Zionism should liberate the Jews.”
Source: David Novak.

If you want to argue that Israel isn’t a secular state, fine. But that’s not the point you asked about. You wanted the difference between Zionism and the Zealots, and I delivered.

Zionism, at its core, was a secular nationalist movement aiming to establish a Jewish state in the 19th century, while the Zealots were driven by religious motives in their fight against Roman rule. The fact that Israel’s modern laws don’t reflect that original secular vision doesn’t change the historical distinctions between the two movements.

You asked for specific differences, and I gave them to you on a platter. If you want to keep spouting revisionist nonsense without sources, keep it up—it just makes it clearer to the mods that you’re here for bad-faith arguments, not facts. 🥰

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0 points

1 day ago

Let me google that for you: According to historical records, during the Jewish-Roman wars, particularly the “Kitos War” (115-117 AD), a significant number of Greeks and Cypriots were killed by Jewish rebels, with Roman historian Cassius Dio claiming that around 240,000 Greek-Cypriots were massacred by the Jewish insurgents in Cyprus alone; this revolt saw widespread violence against Roman citizens and other non-Jewish populations across the Roman Empire, including in Cyrene and Alexandria

google aggregated results from: https://www.heritage-history.com/index.php?c=resources&s=war-dir&f=wars_romanjewish#:~:text=Second Jewish-Roman War (a.k.a.,War) : 115-117 A.D.&text=It started in a Jewish,killed%2C both Jew and Gentile.

"The Jewish Encyclopedia describes the Cyrene massacres:

By this outbreak, Libya was depopulated to such an extent that a few years later new colonies had to be established there. Under the leadership of one Artemion, the Cypriot Jews participated in the great uprising against the Romans under Trajan, and they are reported to have massacred 240,000 Greeks (From Dio Cassius, lxviii. 32" https://countercurrents.org/2024/03/the-new-sicarii-the-jews-face-a-hostile-world/

"The Zealots took a leading role in the First Jewish–Roman War (66–73 CE), as they objected to Roman rule and violently sought to eradicate it by indiscriminately attacking Romans and Greeks. Another group, likely related, were the Sicarii, who raided Jewish settlements and killed Jews they considered apostates and collaborators, while also urging Jews to fight the Romans and other Jews for the cause. Josephus paints a very bleak picture of their activities as they instituted what he characterized as a murderous “reign of terror” prior to the Jewish Temple’s destruction. "

“The Sicarii were a splinter group of the Jewish Zealots who, in the decades preceding Jerusalem’s destruction in 70 CE, strongly opposed the Roman occupation of Judea and attempted to expel them and their sympathizers from the area.[12] The Sicarii carried sicae, or small daggers, concealed in their cloaks.[13] At public gatherings, they pulled out these daggers to attack Romans and alleged Roman sympathizers alike, blending into the crowd after the deed to escape detection.”

both from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zealots

You see those citations [12] and [13], feel free to trace those back in the wikipedia bibliography notes if you need to.

so killing hundreds of thousands, and indiscriminately killing all romans and roman sympathizers --men, women and children, just for the crime of being Romans is definitely a genocide. The areas were emptied of people entirely and had to be recolonized by Rome. Its pretty darn close to exactly the same as zionists killing people just for being palestinian isnt it. Do you understand now why they are the same philosophy and history is simply repeating itself?

Heres a direct quote for you:

“The Zionists are heirs of the original Sicarii” https://countercurrents.org/2024/03/the-new-sicarii-the-jews-face-a-hostile-world/

So theres the quotes you demanded-- you’re welcome!

And did you just cite David frickin Novak as your source, the guy who argues that zionism is only a coherent stance when done by Jews (he flatly rejects secular zionism) and calls for Israel to be a theocracy. Thats your “historian” “source” huh. You realize that your source vehemently disagrees with your assertion that zionism is secular, right? So your own source contradicts you. Thats pretty inconvenient for you, my condolences. If you need a source for Novak disagreeing with you, Here you go, from : https://www.amazon.com/Zionism-Judaism-Theory-David-Novak/dp/1107099951 “the main task of religious Zionism to be the establishment of an Israeli theocracy.”

“Book Description This book argues that Zionism is only a coherent political stance when it is intelligently rooted in Judaism.”

And you claim the mods might want to take a look at my comments huh, Thats hilarious. Tell me what TOS I have violated.

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spujb@lemmy.cafe

0 points

21 hours ago

awesome sources! looks to me like exactly what you wrote: a massacre, huge but not labeled a genocide by any reputable source, and a zionist who wishes modern zionism was a theocracy but has written, admitting in print, that it wasn’t.

Tell me what TOS I have violated.

nah i don’t care go read them yourself

thanks for the opportunity to let me clarify. a few tips for an up and coming history scholar as yourself: it helps if you read the things you cite, and you might want to brush up on the accepted definition of genocide. 😊

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0 points

15 hours ago

awesome sources!

At least my sources dont undercut my entire point like yours did.

a massacre, huge but not labeled a genocide by any reputable source

240,000 civilians killed simply for their ethnicity by terrorist means (and kudos to you-- you admitted its terrorism) is genocide whether you like it or not. I dont need some other author to write it out for it to be true. Thats not how truth works, friend. And its why zionist repression and suppression of media and academia wont work. Zionists dont understand this.

nah i don’t care go read them yourself

You do care, because you are the one who brought up "the mod"s and how they should come and look at our comments, just a comment ago. Its that you utterly failed to make your point and lack the basic dignity to take the loss, thank me for the sharing of data, and walk away like a well-raised and civilized human being.

So lets summarize and close this off. Modern Zionism is functionally the exact same philosophy as historical Zealots and they conduct religious fundamentalist genocides and terrorism. You’ve admitted to the terrorism claim being true, and the UN and ICC substantiated the genocide. Historical fact shows us the Second temple era Zealots used the same exact means for the same exact ends, for the goal of creating an ethnically cleansed theocreatic nation state for Jewish humans only. Thanks for the conversation.

You have yourself a nice day now. I’ll be blocking you now so we dont have to have a repeat of this behavior on your part.

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0 points

2 days ago

Zealots […] employed genocide.

Haha. Liar. Name even one scholar of repute who believes this. Your credentials as “student of history” are severely maligned by this and it might be time for you to hit the books.

I would love to continue a conversation with you but this single malignant statement from yourself has poisoned the well. Ending the discussion here. 🙃

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