cross-posted from: https://lemm.ee/post/45204357
Yesterday, I created my account on Lemmy.ml because I want to become mod on !stardewvalley@lemmy.ml. And I posted this comic on !stardewvalley@lemmy.ml It’s SDV game cutscene where Shane a NPC go watch Sports game with you kiss you accidentily but It was part of that event also player kiss Shane(NPC) back. Here’s video for more context. And someone claimed it have SA(Sexual Assualt) From Hexbear Ofcourse. So, I should delete it. I said it was a part of game cutscene. And If main player doesn’t love the Shane(NPC) then they don’t need to complete this event. And Just as a sarcasm I added Yeah we shoule delete this entire community because this game is Woke like Woke Detector Steam Group said. That user think I am some anti-woke dickhead something like that IDK. And tell me to Kill My Self. What I do now? I wanted on become mod on .ml because community was already well established. I message dessaline but I am sure he will not unbanned me. :(
Did I really did something wrong? I don’t know If I really did something wrong.
Link for that comic if embed doesn’t work.
Create one lemm.ee !stardewvalley@lemm.ee
Yeah it is all so extremely obvious:
Assume good faith in even the most obvious of questions, except in cases where a user is explicitly acting in a combative or unreasonable manner.
Do not directly link to comments or posts of other federated instances on public posts with intent to goad or mock.
When in a federated instance, their rules (and their code of conduct) apply.
Allow instances their own space for discussion, if requested implicitly or explicitly.
etc., though none of that is ever actually enforced, making it a list of “suggestions puh-lease”, rather than “rules”.
Speaking of voting, as a mathematician you will appreciate this one most of all: https://hexbear.net/post/1712067. Quick summary: they took a vote, then discarded the vote entirely. One of the results was 41 for remaining federated with lemm.ee vs. only 4 for defederation - that is 91% for, vs. only 9% against. And then programming.dev wasn’t quite as close but it was still freaking hugely biased towards one side: 27 (58.7%) for remain federated with them vs. 19 (41.3%) to defederation. The difference between them being 8 votes out of 46 = 17.4% - which is nowhere close to a tie. Unless you are an HB admin I suppose and then:
The end vote for programming.dev and aussie.zone was a tie, so we decided to break the tie in favor of defederation.
This is… just… wow. >91% wanted to remain federated with lemm.ee, and 59% to remain federated with programming.dev, but screw the users - what do you think this is, a vote? Oh wait… :-(
And once again the comments in that post tell the REAL story. e.g. this one https://hexbear.net/post/1712067/4540345:
Multiple users legit left this site for months at a time multiple times due to those dumb struggle sessions. Hexbear even lost devs over some of them
devs!!! They are turning away their own programmers who provide the site that they all use to shit onto each one with!?!?! And given how Hexbear predates Lemmy, I think they actually meant “dev”, rather than “admin” - i.e. someone who did the work of modifying the code, which is all the more relevant given how it is in Rust, which is not an easy language to learn, even for someone starting off with extensive knowledge of C++.
But speaking of admins, the admins themselves say things like:
however we consider providing a safer browsing experience for marginalized users more important than the opportunity to dunk.
THE OPPORTUNITY TO DUNK - not the opportunity to converse civilly will, not the opportunity to learn, to listen, to discourse, but TO DUNK.
And ofc the admins are not the only ones speaking thus - “Compromising the ability to spread leftist ideas to others in order to…”, “They’re reading what we’re saying and the message is still getting spread. Our ideals are spread through interacting with people…”, “you can’t stop some users from seeing the ridiculous fascist takes”, “Where do they think new users come from? They don’t spontaneously appear from thin air they appear because other people are exposed to them in other spaces.” - and here’s one that literally uses the actual word “disrupt”: “With Lemmy, it was about building something that was going to eventually create its own theatre-of-operations that disrupted existing ones, and hexbear was going to be connected to that so I could always justify it.”
The only reason that Hexbear exists and is federated with any other instances at all, from the mouths of the very self-same admins that run it, is… again… “THE OPPORTUNITY TO DUNK”.
So when e.g. Cowbee comes in, ignores 95% of what I say and hyper-focuses on one tiny little aspect, demanding that I show proof of all of my work, while not offering any for their own points and instead just saying “just trust me bro, and hit up my DMs where we can talk more” (but then forgetting I suppose that they said that, or presuming that I could not read it in the very self-same post, or more likely presuming that others would not take the time to do so, and then they claimed that they had never done such a thing at all, hrm…).
The Innuendo Studios series is absolutely one of the best series on YouTube that I have ever seen! I just presumed that you already knew of it, but yes if you haven’t taken time to watch throuhg all of them, you absolutely would probably enjoy it! Everything he’s done is amazing too, like the agency of protagony. Also the gamer-gate one, titled something like why is jack so angry, b/c it shows the historical development of those trends - but that was just a precursor to the ultimate one: The Alt-Right Playbook.
I see these same tactics played out over and over and over and over and over and over and over again by people like Cowbee, and it is just exhausting. I LOVED your take-down here, but that simply cannot keep up with the absolute TSUNAMI of bullshit that “they” are able to spew. It takes them two seconds to say something and move on, so even if it takes you only two minutes to reply, let alone two hours, then they “win”. And either way they declare that they do so. As Trump is pretty much guaranteed to do so, if he does not outright win himself, in about one month from now.
So that’s the thing: anybody can go in and read these comments, from the HB’s very own mouths. The highly ironic thing is that they actually ARE behaving themselves quite well when they are out here!!! Compared to what they do inside there, that is. (have you seen the pig-poop link yet? ewww…) But who is going to spend that kind of time?! And yet, their messages are chosen to be spread all across the entire Fediverse, unless the instance takes the requisite steps to specifically defederate from them. Like a CSAM attack, this is a wave of hostility and more importantly childishness that festers inside their borders, but also explodes outwards to affect us all. Unless we go somewhere that has enacted defenses to keep it out.
At which point it becomes relevant that especially when they noticed that they were getting defederated from most of the major instances, and their admins chose to defederate even more other instances, many HB users fled to their alts, e.g. on Lemmy.ml. Even if those alts had existed prior to that, still, they became the new vehicle through which the HBs chose to spread their messages.
No wonder 100% of the people that I have told about Lemmy irl looks at me so oddly - one glance at the all feed, at the types of things coming out from like memes@lemmy.ml, and all the toxicity spewed from HBs and HBs under the guise of other alts, or others who were never on HB but act the same, is always enough to turn my irl friends away from Lemmy. And has finally done the same to me, now that places such as PieFed and Tesseract are available (but possibly would have been enough regardless).
To be fair, the voting there is just to probe the waters, the admins still want to take the final decision.
About users (incl. devs) leaving, it’s worse in the context:
Yeah, pre-federation Hexbear was noticeably worse compared to now. I really don’t understand what people see in pre-federation Hexbear. I guess it was less openly bigoted, but seeing all those bullshit struggle sessions and people who you regard as your acquaintances arguing over the stupidest shit isn’t exactly great for your mental health either. [emphasis mine]
Multiple users legit left this site for months at a time multiple times due to those dumb struggle sessions. Hexbear even lost devs over some of them
When r/CTH was banned from Reddit, I thought that it wasn’t to blame - it’s just that the Reddit admins wanted to throw a bone to the fascists, as CTH was in the same banwave as frensworld and clownworld. I mean, it’s spez/kn0thing, we know that “umm, ackshyually, we don’t hate you fascists. See? We’re also banning some left-wingers! Please stay in Reddit, our dear fascist userbase”.
However, if I’m reading those two comments right, that is clearly false. CTH → Hexbear was already tailored to cause trouble to other communities back in Reddit; this tendency only continued in the Fediverse.
And unless it has a target, its users will fight each other, even if they’re all leftists and consider each other leftist, so they can’t even pretend that they’re just dunking libs.
[from the other comment]
One of the tricks that HBs - and also Magats - use is to say something, knowing full well that it is not true, but relying on the fact that others will simply go along with it.
The alt-right playbook that you linked mentions it, under “changing the goalposts”.
[And before some casual reader tries to distort this into the horseshoe “theory”: nope. I’m talking here about rhetoric tactics that you see regardless of political views. It’s just that the alt right loves it, and HB happens to love it too.]
And lemmy.ml is arguably all the worse for being more tolerable therefore more insidious to have to parse.
It’s kind of funny how it remembers me Marx’s The 18th Brumaire - specially the first two paragraphs. As if the .ml admin team (and Lemmy devs) were mimicking what Reddit did as trying to create something new, but being bound by the already existing circumstances so they’re forced to replicate how the Reddit admin handles users:
- trying to handle clearly incompatible groups, and failing at it;
- hidden rules (in Reddit it was “profitability”, here it’s the admins’ views), opaquely enforced through the listed rules
- admin team can’t be arsed to verify if users actually violated a rule (explicit or hidden) - if it looks like a violation, assume that it is, and then refuse to go back on the decision
- muppets assume that the user is by default bad, unless there’s obvious evidence contrariwise (sometimes not even)
…and as a result .ml ends as the farce for Reddit’s tragedy.
That kind of voting “strategy” might best be described by the keyword “gamble”, as in it could pay off or… it could backfire. This was public. We all saw what they did. They dangled the whittle “vote” in front of their users, then they snatched it away. That’s a “power move”, as in someone flaunting their dick size just to show off - worse, a tiny one, while daring someone to talk back. The emperor has no clothes, etc. THAT level of insensitivity is on full display.
The enemy of my enemy is not always my friend. Two lefts do not make a right. 1+1 != 1.9, nor 2.1, but precisely 2, the former two answers revealing how it is possible for both to be incorrect even if in opposite ways - and then other answers such as 2i, e, -100000, and “your mother” are examples of still more ways to be wrong, although oddly enough “two” could be correct, depending on whether the rules are flexible enough to recognize such.
Flipping to lemmy.ml, I have enormous respect for those code developers having offered their skills to release that for the entire world to use. Kudos. But running an instance is a different skillset - and yet, back when other instances were not yet a thing, they offered that too, to help lemmy get off the ground. Kudos again. Though power corrupts, and over time… Anyway, just b/c something started off one way does not mean that it must continue forward indefinitely - the word for that might be “stagnation”, or even “inflexibility” to adapt to changing circumstances.
I agree with all of what you said, except how things appear twice. I think rather than people refuse to learn from history, and therefore mandate that it be repeated, far more often than twice. e.g. Rome fell, now USA is the new Rome, and it will fall too, whereforth who will step up to the plate next? (after a few hundred to a thousand years time ofc, to allow time to forget) Humans are so incredibly stoopid - or at least I know that *I* am - and we love to fall in love with ourselves and our latest bright shiny idea, as if it had never been tried before.
Not that I am blaming the founding fathers of the USA - far from it, b/c (1) it was an experiment, and (2) it actually did work out well all across the wide world. However, it was a piss-poor implementation, which if it was to have been considered as worthwhile then steps should therefore have been taken to have made it more robust. But fast-forward to nowadays, facing up against things that it has never really had to contend with before - chief among them a level of foreign aggression that costs the actors so little, yet yields such enormous dividends; but not far behind is the incredible stupidity that already lies within and is totally separate from that, especially seeing as how it predated it by hundreds of years - and I honestly fear that it cannot stand against such an onslaught (especially this 2-pronged assault) for too much longer.
So in my view what we need to do is WAKE UP. A fire is in the building and we should do things about that. Secure our valuables (e.g. children), identify an exit (if there is one), and the like. But then in the face of all of that, to listen to the likes of HBs… wow, just wow, uh… no. I would leave social media altogether rather than put up with the likes of that. Except when I made my account I did not know. And also it took me months to figure out the extent of the problem, e.g. that it includes lemmy.ml too. And also I did not want to simply leave, without telling others first of my findings. And also Kbin had fallen, long may Mbin yet live, but others were rising up to take its place - and while Sublinks seems perpetually not yet ready, PieFed is looking mighty fine these days. I can be free, not just keeping lemmy.ml at arm’s length, but fully and entirely free, from all that bullcrap. Though I am certain that it will not be perfect either - it lacks a lot of the polish that Lemmy has for instance, and yet even there it has things that Lemmy does not, e.g. I’ve asked questions and seen changes made in (not even tens of) mere minutes! Which itself could lead someone to ask… why wasn’t it made already?:-P But anyway that’s a far cry from begging to be able to defederate from the toxic userbase on lemmy.ml, and a year later we seem further from that goal than ever before - almost as if there is resistance to providing such a feature…
I’ll focus on the disagreement, OK?
In all examples provided by Marx, the “farce” was fully aware of the “tragedy”. Including the “main character” of the book, Louis Bonaparte - he was Napoleon’s nephew, he clearly knew how things went in the French Revolution. And the .ml admins are likely aware of how rules are enforced in Reddit.
So it isn’t like people don’t learn from history - it’s more like they can only replicate it poorly, as it’s what gives them some reference, even if the conditions around them change. That also applies to the .ml admins; even if they were the ones implementing modlogs and federation, since their reference is Reddit, I think that they never took into account the contradiction between their opaque rule enforcement and the modlog, or trying to control what a userbase says versus federation.
Though I am certain that it will not be perfect either - it lacks a lot of the polish that Lemmy has for instance
I have some good news for you: I’ve seen lots of programmers saying that Python is considerably easier to learn and read code for than Rust is. As such, feature parity and “polish parity” might come sooner than later.
I’m personally hoping that new PieFed instances pop up, and that some Lemmy instances get converted into PieFed instances. I’m also grateful to the Lemmy devs, and I relate to their desire to have an instance where you don’t need to struggle every single minute against the same old anti-communist straw men; but they’re awful at community building, and yet so many instances are giving .ml a pass because they don’t want to hamper Lemmy development. They won’t get that pass if PieFed gets stronger, it’ll give them two options - improve their community or see .ml shrinking and Lemmy slowly being replaced with PieFed.
