feddit.org

5 points

26 days ago

For clarity, does this extend to Capitalists? Fascists?

Hah I knew it. No, dissent is not the same as platforming.

I’m gonna disagree on the semantics there.

Really? So doing anarchist praxis is not anarchism?

On the contrary, it supports leftists to do what they believe is most effective and learn from other tendencies.

Supports how? With thoughts and prayers? That’s not unity. That’s just vibes.

Why don’t you make a thread inviting them? I’m not wanting to get accused of “brigading” like Hexbear always is.

Because I think it’s fruitless if they don’t even bother to take part in completely neutral topics which have nothing to do with “AES”.

I’ve run into issues with dbzer0 as an instance regarding this, your rules surrounding MLs are deliberately written in a manner that limits discussion. If you change the rules to be more free-speech then I’ll consider it, I used to do so until it became clear that I had to watch what I said, while takes like “Lenin wasn’t a Marxist” stay up and even get postively upvoted.

The only explicit rule we have regarding MLs is “no tankie communities”. And of course I’m not going to remove comments just to fit your sensibilities about Lenin.

But in any case I was not talking about you specifically, I was countering your point about Hexbear anarchists being too precious to venture outside a space where ML-style “AES” is not the accepted paradigm, which for real is an utterly an absurd thing for an anarchist to be hung upon.

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Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml

-2 points

26 days ago

Hah I knew it. No, dissent is not the same as platforming.

So then where is the line between reasonable dissent and platforming?

Really? So doing anarchist praxis is not anarchism?

It’s semantics. If a Marxist uses Marxist analysis to side with Anarchists, they are still acting as a Marxist.

Supports how? With thoughts and prayers? That’s not unity. That’s just vibes.

As I already stated, many members of Hexbear are also members of PSL, FRSO, Food Not Bombs, or local leftist parties and groups.

Because I think it’s fruitless if they don’t even bother to take part in completely neutral topics which have nothing to do with AES.

So then why ask me to send them your way?

The only explicit rule we have regarding MLs is “no tankie communities”. And of course I’m not going to remove comments just to fit your sensibilities about Lenin.

Never said you should remove the anti-Lenin comments, but that your moderators have bias. The “no tankie” bit is a good example, “tankie” is ill-defined and as such can be used to target whatever the moderator wishes.

But in any case I was not talking about you specifically, I was countering your point about Hexbear anarchists being too precious to venture outside a space where ML-style “AES” is not the accepted paradigm, which for real is an utterly an absurd thing for an anarchist to be hung upon.

It isn’t about HB Anarchists being “precious,” Hexbear is already active enough and has its own Anarchist communities. Jumping to dbzer0s isn’t exactly the first choice for most people.

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5 points

26 days ago

So then where is the line between reasonable dissent and platforming?

Very big subject and I doubt I have time to expand here. But to put it short: Aligned goals. You claim anarchists are part of the left, then their alternative positions are just dissent from your viewpoint, so according to your left unity, you need to afford them dissent. If you actually claim, that no, they don’t share goals so we need to silence their free speech and suppress their actions, then don’t prattle about “left unity” either.

It’s semantics. If a Marxist uses Marxist analysis to side with Anarchists, they are still acting as a Marxist.

Again, praxis. What praxis are they doing! Anarchist or ML? Your Marxist analysis is irrelevant.

As I already stated, many members of Hexbear are also members of PSL, FRSO, Food Not Bombs, or local leftist parties and groups.

So? How is some Hexbear not taking part in FNB showing “left unity” to those who do?

Again, all you’re showing here is that hexbear left unity is just vibes. “We all hang out in the same place and we all do different things, so we’re united (somehow)”

So then why ask me to send them your way?

You suggested I should talk to them. If you have someone who’s willing to do the effort, they are free to step outside of the hexbear compound and talk.

It isn’t about HB Anarchists being “precious,” Hexbear is already active enough and has its own Anarchist communities. Jumping to dbzer0s isn’t exactly the first choice for most people.

And again, kinda cultish, but you do you.

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Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml

-2 points

26 days ago

Very big subject and I doubt I have time to expand here. But to put it short: Aligned goals. You claim anarchists are part of the left, then their alternative positions are just dissent from your viewpoint, so according to your left unity, you need to afford them dissent. If you actually claim, that no, they don’t share goals so we need to silence their free speech and suppress their actions, then don’t prattle about “left unity” either.

Wrong reading here. Anarchists aren’t “dissent,” what becomes dissent is splitting and factionalism.

Again, praxis. What praxis are they doing! Anarchist or ML? Your Marxist analysis is irrelevant.

Both.

So? How is some Hexbear not taking part in FNB showing “left unity” to those who do?

I think you’re just trying to argue semantics here. Hexbear is made up of different leftists all pursuing similar goals through different strains.

You suggested I should talk to them. If you have someone who’s willing to do the effort, they are free to step outside of the hexbear compound and talk.

I’ll refrain, I am uninterested in being accused of brigading.

And again, kinda cultish, but you do you.

How?

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5 points

26 days ago

Wrong reading here. Anarchists aren’t “dissent,” what becomes dissent is splitting and factionalism.

So, Anarchists are allowed to exist in ML societies so long as they become or pretend to be MLs. Gotcha.

Both.

So you join a anarchist movement which has momentum, and along with direct action, you try to set up vanguard parties and shit?

If so, that’s just entryism.

I think you’re just trying to argue semantics here. Hexbear is made up of different leftists all pursuing similar goals through different strains.

Not at all. But I do think you’re trying to avoid the thrust of my argument by simply restating your position as a fact and taking us 4 replies back.

An anarchist doing anarchist stuff is not in “left unity” with an ML doing ML stuff because they hang out in the same bar.

An ML not doing anarchist stuff is not in “left unity” with an anarchist doing anarchist stuff.

An anarchist and an ML hanging out with each other is a just vibes.

An anarchist and an ML hanging out in a web forum with a peculiar style, is an online culture.

Without common praxis, there is no unity. This is why anarchists are in unity with each other even though syndicalists do syndicalist stuff, and mutualists do mutualist stuff etc. Because our multitude of direct action complement each other in prefiguring the system. You know what doesn’t complement anarchist praxis and more often than not, counters it? ML praxis!

How?

Because cultists prefer to not venture out of their communities, and discourage interacting with people who don’t already share the same worldview.

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Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml

-2 points

26 days ago

So, Anarchists are allowed to exist in ML societies so long as they become or pretend to be MLs. Gotcha.

No, and that’s clearly a bad-faith reading. If the Anarchists refuse to work with the Marxists, to the point of directing the revolution against itself, then that’s an issue.

So you join a anarchist movement which has momentum, and along with direct action, you try to set up vanguard parties and shit?

I don’t see why you think Marxist analysis driving decision making requires the use of strategies like Vanguard parties. Vanguardism is a strategy, not the practice of Marxism.

Not at all. But I do think you’re trying to avoid the thrust of my argument by simply restating your position as a fact and taking us 4 replies back.

I disagree.

Without common praxis, there is no unity. This is why anarchists are in unity with each other even though syndicalists do syndicalist stuff, and mutualists do mutualist stuff etc. Because our multitude of direct action complement each other in prefiguring the system. You know what doesn’t complement anarchist praxis and more often than not, counters it? ML praxis!

Hexbear Anarchists would disagree, though I won’t speak for them.

Because cultists prefer to not venture out of their communities, and discourage interacting with people who don’t already share the same worldview.

You’re guilty of the same, you’ve cultivated a community generally hostile towards Marxists while outwardly saying you don’t have a problem with them. I think it’s better to own up to your biases and how they have impacted your community, rather than try to present dbzer0 as uniquely open to discussion.

On that note, I don’t think there’s any real discussion to be had going forward with this convo, we clearly aren’t seeing eye to eye on what constitutes what type of praxis nor what left-unity looks like, and therefore I don’t think it makes sense to continue wasting what I assume is a nice Sunday for the both of us.

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5 points

26 days ago

No, and that’s clearly a bad-faith reading. If the Anarchists refuse to work with the Marxists, to the point of directing the revolution against itself, then that’s an issue.

How is it a bad faith reading when you reiterate it immediately after? Who decides what is “the point of directing the revolution against itself”. Anarchists will surely tell you they are doing the exact opposite.

I don’t see why you think Marxist analysis driving decision making requires the use of strategies like Vanguard parties. Vanguardism is a strategy, not the practice of Marxism.

I don’t give two wooden nickels about the “Marxist analysis driving decision making”. I want you to tell me what ML praxis you’re doing when you declared “Both” earlier!

Hexbear Anarchists would disagree, though I won’t speak for them.

If they disagree with core anarchist theory then one has to start adding scare quotes to “Anarchist”

You’re guilty of the same, you’ve cultivated a community generally hostile towards Marxists while outwardly saying you don’t have a problem with them. I think it’s better to own up to your biases and how they have impacted your community, rather than try to present dbzer0 as uniquely open to discussion.

You realize one of our most popular communities is run my a Marxist and promotes left unity, yes? Please don’t project.

On that note, I don’t think there’s any real discussion to be had going forward with this convo, we clearly aren’t seeing eye to eye on what constitutes what type of praxis nor what left-unity looks like, and therefore I don’t think it makes sense to continue wasting what I assume is a nice Sunday for the both of us.

Eh, I just saw this at the end of my reply. No need to reply if you don’t want to.

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