feddit.org

5 points

26 days ago

Most people are flexible, and if in the event there was mass success along Marxist lines or Anarchist lines, would join the successful movement.

A movement is only successful through unity of praxis. How would one succeed when MLs and Anarchists are pulling into two different directions?

(I’m going to put aside for now the many things I have to say about historical lessons anarchists have learned and why to avoid this)

And I am telling you that you can understand this “peculiarity” by reading Imperialism.

I doubt Lenin had much to say about the peculiar way leftist nerds spam emojis in an online forum :D

This is the most correct thing you’ve said. Hexbear isn’t an org, it was described by one user as “not the Communist meeting room, but the bar they hang out at after the meeting.” There are members of various orgs like PSL, FRSO, Food Not Bombs, etc. on Hexbear alike.

That doesn’t describe unity. It describes people who are OK with suppressing themselves in order to hang out in a common space to talk about other matters. I hung out in plenty of ML parties in my days. I was still never united with them.

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Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml

-1 points

26 days ago

A movement is only successful through unity of praxis. How would one succeed when MLs and Anarchists are pulling into two different directions?

I literally just stated that if either movement started to truly pick up steam, most would join the one picking up steam.

(I’m going to put aside for now the many things I have to say about historical lessons anarchists have learned and why to avoid this)

You should talk to the Anarchists on Hexbear about what they think of with respect to this topic, obviously I am biased but it’s worth noting that what I said previously, most would join the successful movement, has historical basis.

I doubt Lenin had much to say about the peculiar way leftist nerds spam emojis in an online forum :D

I thought we were speaking about geopolitical positions, not just site culture. Lemmygradders don’t speak the same as Hexbear either, Hexbear has a unique site culture, that’s true

That doesn’t describe unity. It describes people who are OK with suppressing themselves in order to hang out in a common space to talk about other matters. I hung out in plenty of ML parties in my days. I was still never united with them.

Again, I suggest asking Hexbear users directly.

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5 points

25 days ago

I literally just stated that if either movement started to truly pick up steam, most would join the one picking up steam.

First of all, that’s ahistorical. Bolsheviks infamously denied a revolution was happening and tried to wait for better material conditions, while a revolution was happening. This kind of things happens all the time.

Anyway, you just rephrased yourself. How would a movement “pick up steam” with two factions pulling in different directions? Or do you claim that MLs would join a purely anarchist movement? If so, that’s not an example of left unity. It’s an argument for entryism or something. And we already know what happened when anarchists joined ML movements picking up steam…

I thought we were speaking about geopolitical positions, not just site culture. Lemmygradders don’t speak the same as Hexbear either, Hexbear has a unique site culture, that’s true

No I’m talking about the site culture. I think that’s the primary reason people put aside their core differences to hang out, either that, or LARPing as the other faction to give credence to “left unity” 🤷

Again, I suggest asking Hexbear users directly.

If any non-toxic anarchists venture out of Hexbear, sure I can ask them. !anarchism@lemmy.dbzer0.com is right there but I never see any hexbear anarchists commenting (except for the times they brigaded)

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Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml

-2 points

25 days ago

First of all, that’s ahistorical. Bolsheviks infamously denied a revolution was happening and tried to wait for better material conditions, while a revolution was happening. This kind of things happens all the time.

It is historical. Many Anarchists joined the Bolsheviks to support the mass movement, and the Bolsheviks also supported the Anarchists in Spain for a time. Disagreements are allowed to happen as well, my point is that the division isn’t black and white.

Anyway, you just rephrased yourself. How would a movement “pick up steam” with two factions pulling in different directions? Or do you claim that MLs would join a purely anarchist movement? If so, that’s not an example of left unity. It’s an argument for entryism or something. And we already know what happened when anarchists joined ML movements picking up steam…

You call it “entryism,” I call it left-unity. Even then, coalitions have their place as well. Secondly, many Anarchists joined the ML movements, the ones who did not were the ones too opposed to work with them. That doesn’t mean the Marxists were innocent, of course, just that it isn’t black and white. Many Anarchists joined the ranks of the Bolsheviks.

No I’m talking about the site culture. I think that’s the primary reason people put aside their core differences to hang out, either that, or LARPing as the other faction to give credence to “left unity” 🤷

The former is more of a point than the latter, there are clearly Anarchists on Hexbear and Anarchist theory is often talked about and encouraged.

If any non-toxic anarchists venture out of Hexbear, sure I can ask them. !anarchism@lemmy.dbzer0.com is right there but I never see any hexbear anarchists commenting (except for the times they brigaded)

Hexbear’s Anarchists aren’t likely to participate in an Anarchist community that fundamentally disagrees on analysis of AES.

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5 points

25 days ago

It is historical. Many Anarchists joined the Bolsheviks to support the mass movement, and the Bolsheviks also supported the Anarchists in Spain for a time. Disagreements are allowed to happen as well, my point is that the division isn’t black and white.

My point is that the division is very much black and white. The anarchists which joined the Bolsheviks got disillusioned, purged or killed. The anarchists of Spain learned similar lessons. Disagreements are allowed to happen in anarchist revolutions, sure, sometimes too much for their own good. But we’ve seen that in ML ones, persistent anarchist disagreement is an eventual path towards the front of a firing squad for being “counter-revolutionary”.

You call it “entryism,” I call it left-unity.

No, when you join an succesful Anarchist movement and don’t act like an anarchist, it’s entryism. When you act as an anarchist, it’s just anarchism.

Again, it’s all about the praxis. How one larps on a web forum is irrelevant.

Even then, coalitions have their place as well.

Sure, if all you’re doing is playing reformism…

The former is more of a point than the latter, there are clearly Anarchists on Hexbear and Anarchist theory is often talked about and encouraged.

So long as it anarchist theory which suppresses the largest anarchist lessons learned painfully in the 20th century, which is that left unity doesn’t exist 🤷

Hexbear’s Anarchists aren’t likely to participate in an Anarchist community that fundamentally disagrees on analysis of AES.

Starting to sound like a cult here, buddy…

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Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml

-2 points

25 days ago

My point is that the division is very much black and white. The anarchists which joined the Bolsheviks got disillusioned, purged or killed. The anarchists of Spain learned similar lessons. Disagreements are allowed to happen in anarchist revolutions, sure, sometimes too much for their own good. But we’ve seen that in ML ones, persistent anarchist disagreement is an eventual path towards the front of a firing squad for being “counter-revolutionary”.

At what point does dissent become counter-revolutionary? Never? Or is there a point where it makes sense to enforce unity?

No, when you join an succesful Anarchist movement and don’t act like an anarchist, it’s entryism. When you act as an anarchist, it’s just anarchism.

So if I ideologically think the movement is flawed but materially support it I am considered by you an Anarchist? I disagree, to an extent. If a movement gains traction, it is more important to effectively support that movement, however it manifests, to the best of your abilities.

Again, it’s all about the praxis. How one larps on a web forum is irrelevant

If a Marxist believes in Democratic Centralism and therefore joins the Anarchists in a united movement, rather than fracturing it, despite their disagreements, they are a Marxist.

So long as it anarchist theory which suppresses the largest anarchist lessons learned painfully in the 20th century, which is that left unity doesn’t exist 🤷

That’s your opinion, of course, and Hexbear’s Anarchists clearly disagree. I suggest talking to them about it.

Starting to sound like a cult here, buddy…

I don’t see that at all. If dbzer0 as an instance is generally hostile to support of AES, it isn’t always useful nor fun to engage if you do support AES. I don’t think it’s “cult-like,” neither instance is truly neutral ground.

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5 points

25 days ago

At what point does dissent become counter-revolutionary? Never? Or is there a point where it makes sense to enforce unity?

No. It never makes sense to “enforce unity”. Dissent doesn’t become counter-revolutionary unless there’s counter-revolutionary praxis involved. Since you’re all about “left unity”, you should be perfectly happy to let anarchists practice anarchist prefiguration inside a ML society, no?

So if I ideologically think the movement is flawed but materially support it I am considered by you an Anarchist?

No, but it means you’re doing anarchism. I.e. it’s not “left unity”. It’s just anarchism.

If a movement gains traction, it is more important to effectively support that movement, however it manifests, to the best of your abilities.

Again, a movement doesn’t gain traction on its own. Its unity of praxis that makes it so, which is explicitly what your “left unity” is not doing, since it waits and see if someone else has traction to join it. It’s nonsense!

That’s your opinion, of course, and Hexbear’s Anarchists clearly disagree. I suggest talking to them about it.

Sure, tell them to come over to /c/anarchism!

I don’t see that at all. If dbzer0 as an instance is generally hostile to support of AES, it isn’t always useful nor fun to engage if you do support AES.

dbzer0 is not hexbear. We don’t ban people who are misguided about “AES”, like hexbear would. Not do we dogpile them for wrongthink. As such, there’s not problem in coming over to talk to us.

However I would be raising quite an eyebrow to any anarchist who avoids talking to other anarchists who don’t accept state capitalism is a form of socialism.

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