The very idea of a “spoiler” is a tool used by those clinging to the duopoly to scare people into submission, to keep us from voting our conscience.
No, it’s a tool that exists in some flawed voting systems, recognized by political scientists and used by bad actors.
You are correct that I don’t buy into that narrative, but in this community, where the term is tossed around like a weapon, I use the vernacular to communicate effectively.
Why I distrust you, in particular, is that you only recognize the spoiler vernacular, and only post these articles, when they’re about “spoilers for the Trump campaign.” You never do the same for Democrats.
Jill Stein isn’t a spoiler—she’s a voice for the people, challenging a corrupt system that fears true democracy.
We disagree. She’s a spoiler, except unlike the person in the article you posted, she doesn’t have the moral fortitude to admit it. Her position on Ukraine makes her a complete non-starter for me; even if we did have approval or ranked choice voting, she’d wouldn’t get any vote from me. The Greens need to dump her idiot ass.
Why I distrust you, in particular, is that you only recognize the spoiler vernacular, and only post these articles, when they’re about “spoilers for the Trump campaign.” You never do the same for Democrats.
I’m not sure why that makes you so angry. Remember when everyone used to accuse me of only posting Green Party stuff to “spoil” the election and help Trump win? It was like they thought my whole mission was to help Trump win! Actually, people still accuse me of that! Lmao!
But I also post other party news, and you are mad because I used different wording?! lol
Bruh, I post news about third parties.
I’m focused on challenging the entire duopoly, not just one side of it.
If you’ve only seen me call out one party, that’s on you, but my goal is to shine a light on the hypocrisy and corruption of both Democrats AND Republicans.
Both sides are terrified of true alternatives, and that’s exactly why third parties need our support.
I’m not sure why that makes you so angry.
I’m not at all angry. Like you, I call out bullshit when I see it.
Remember when everyone used to accuse me of only posting Green Party stuff to “spoil” the election and help Trump win?
Dude. That’s not a “remember when” thing - that’s a today thing.
It was like they thought my whole mission was to help Trump win!
That’s what spoilers do: they siphon votes from one party. Sometimes the leaders are puppets, sometimes they’re aware of what they’re doing but don’t care; I don’t know which I think it’s worse, but I have a hard time believing that any national level party leader is ignorant of their impact on US elections, for which I hold them culpable.
Actually, people still accuse me of that!
K, now you’re being ironic. Because that’s me. I’m the one who consistently responds to your posts. I have a small hope that someone who might be teetering on voting Green will give a hard think, look at history, and change their minds.
And, look: I want people to be able to vote for other parties. I’ve voted Green before. But first we have to fix the election system in the US to reduce the Spoiler Effect, as we’re doing at the state level with initiatives like the Minnesota RCV effort. Until we get there, though, voting for a third party is only supporting the greater of two evils - whichever party you don’t want to win. Remember, the last time any third party won aUS presidential election was 1861.
my goal is to shine a light on the hypocrisy and corruption of both Democrats AND Republicans.
You don’t, though; you explicitly and consistently advocate for Jill Stein. If I gathered a list of all your posts criticizing Biden, Kamala, and Trump, what do you think the pie chart would look like?
Both sides are terrified of true alternatives,
This is absolutely true, and it’s why they oppose Ranked Choice and Approval Voting (the two most popular alternative voting efforts in the US) initiatives.
and that’s exactly why third parties need our support.
Efforts to replace FPTP need our support. Third parties for the Presidency do not. Third parties in Congress, I’m all for; we could do with more pressure to build coalitions in the legislative branch.
You should ask this guy why he’s pushing the Green Party nominee, aka the pro-environmental policy nominee, despite indicating in other threads that he doesn’t care if Trump wins, aka the anti-environmental policy nominee.
I asked him that, then he started accusing me of bullying him and blocked me.
It’s almost amusing how you cling to the idea that supporting a third party somehow makes me a puppet for Trump.
The fact that you and others are so quick to point fingers at people like me—who dare to challenge the corrupt duopoly—only shows how deep the fear runs among those who defend the status quo.
Your so-called “spoiler effect” is just a convenient excuse to maintain the stranglehold of two parties that have failed us for generations.
I’ll keep advocating for real alternatives, whether you like it or not, because real change doesn’t come from playing it safe within a broken system.
Yeah, and make that pie chart you are talking about with my posts. And also add in there who many posts I make about socialists.
As I have noted before, the vast majority of my posts are for workers rights, socialist causes, union issues, and education. I’ve contributed over 200 posts and comments to the Lemmy socialist community I created and that I mod. I’m a member of the Socialist Workers Party, and I support them financially. You can check out the sub here:
https://lemmy.world/c/socialist
and see my post history here:
https://lemmy.world/u/UniversalMonk?page=1&sort=New&view=Posts.
she’d wouldn’t get any vote from me
And I totally support and respect your right to think that and vote for who you want to. As I’m sure you support and respect my right to vote for who I want to. Right?
I’m not sure “respect” is the word I’d chose, but “support,” sure. As I’ve said before, you have the right to write in “Bozo the Clown” for president; it’d have as much impact, but it’s your vote.
However, I will not stop trying to convince people to not make the mistake I made in 2000. I hated Tipper Gore because of her involvement in the founding of the PMRC, and didn’t want her anywhere near the White House. So I voted Green Party. I take resposibility that my vote, which would otherwise have gone to Gore (if I’d been smarter) and contributed to the election of Bush Jr. and consequently the invasion of Iraq (I believe Afghanistan was inevitable after 9/11, but Iraq was opportunistic Jingoism). My “protest” vote, among a wave of other protest votes, contributed to a needless war and very likely led to politics and policies that ultimately resulted in the Trump Presidency.
Maybe you’re able to divorce yourself from responsibility, and blame other people for your actions; if you vote for Stein and Trump wins, you’ll blame Democrats - you’ve said as much elsewhere. That’s an attitude I have no respect for. Take responsibility for the consequences of your own actions, and if the greater of two evils wins, at least have the ethical fortitude to admit you helped it happen through your vote.
I don’t say all of this for you, but for any other person considering a protest votes: please look back at the 2000 election and the measured analysis of the impact of spoiler parties and the subsequent ripple effects which have led to today.
As your yourself, I’m still not convinced you’re not an agent saboteur; your posts consistently target Democrats more than Republicans, and if you were a true Green Party activist, you’d be attacking Trump and Republicans more than any Democrat. The Democratic party plank aligns far more with the Green party than does the Republican party’s; the current conservative agenda is supposedly completely counter to the Green party’s, and yet Jill Stein and her supporters target Kamala more than Donald because that’s where they know they can siphon votes. And this is the very definition of a spoiler in a FPTP election system.
I second this.
You have the right to vote whoever you want in the election. Hell, I could say I am voting for Harris or Stein here, and do the exact opposite, and nobody would know the difference. You even have the right to try to convince others to change their votes. That’s actually how a Democracy is supposed to work. But that right extends to everyone…including those of us who think Stein is a spoiler.
but it’s your vote.
It is.
I’m still not convinced you’re not an agent saboteur;
The majority of my posts are socialist, and yes, I do critique both sides. The reason it might seem like I’m targeting Democrats more is simply because the majority of Lemmy users lean Democratic, and they often assume that not supporting their candidate means supporting Trump.
I’ve contributed over 200 posts and comments to my Lemmy socialist community. I’m a member of the Socialist Workers Party, and I support them financially. You can check out the sub here:
https://lemmy.world/c/socialist
and see my post history here:
https://lemmy.world/u/UniversalMonk?page=1&sort=New&view=Posts.
I also post and moderate communities on education, another thing Republicans typically dislike. Even in this sub, my posts are mostly news articles about third parties, not attacks on the Democratic party. When I share articles about third parties, Libertarian ones are included, and they often take votes away from Republicans.
So, would I really do all this—things Republicans despise—just to help Trump win? If that were my goal, wouldn’t it be easier for me to just vote for him?
Why is it that just because I’m not voting for your candidate, you automatically think I’m rooting for Trump? I get daily comments and DMs accusing me of being a Russian simp, a Trump supporter, or a troll—just because I post socialist articles, mainly about unions, and a few posts covering all third parties. Think about that.
Regarding your claim that I would blame Democrats if Trump wins because I voted for Stein—I’ve never said that. What I have said is that if Democrats are so concerned about Stein, they should find a stronger candidate and work harder to incorporate Green values, welcoming Green supporters into their party. I’m a good example.
Many here find out I’m voting for Stein, and instead of welcoming me, they accuse me of being a Russian Trumper troll. Does that make me want to join your party?
And a side note: Republicans hate me too, because of my socialist views. But honestly, they’re not nearly as hostile as Democrats are towards me—probably because Lemmy is overwhelmingly Democratic.
This sub often has to remove comments directed at me because of how uncivil they are. Check out this sub’s modlog for proof and an example of some Dem-generated hate. You’ll see a some ugly comments by Republicans, but the vast majority are Democrats hating and belittling people who have a different point of view than they do: https://lemmy.world/modlog/1252
