I’m uncertain. The EU’s words 3 weeks ago were:

“Now, with the #WiFi4EU app, enjoy free, high-speed WiFi in public spaces across Europe.”

That seems to imply that it is. A few replies seem to suggest opposition to a smartphone app requirement:

https://freesoftwareextremist.com/objects/0f42d401-7c57-4f78-a73c-c42278ffb0ed https://piaille.fr/@aaribaud/113260758404320106 https://sns.neonka.info/@nk/113261087148349618 https://westergaard.social/objects/8d4873c1-e674-4403-9f0a-b0adb5dd4246

But this post comes from someone who apparently believes the app is purely for finding the hotspots, not using them:

https://wetdry.world/@cyrus/113264605839060934

If you find something solid let me know. I’ll correct the post if needed. The branch started by @aaribaud seems to have the most insight, implying that the EU is distrusting WPA and using an app to do TLS.

(update) I think you are right. I just heard from someone saying it’s a regular hotspot with captive portal. Still not good but not as bad as an app mandate (like we see with eduroam).

But you don’t have a human right to have it converted into cash at your leisure (and the bank’s effort) whenever you please.

When a consumer opts to close their account, the banking relationship can only be ended when the balance is zero (when neither party owes the other). You seem to be saying the UDHR does not entitle people to end the banking relationship at a time of their choosing, correct? In which case the banking relationship continues until the service fees eat away at the remaining balance, against the will of the customer. This is just another way to separate someone from their property.

Your argument is like buying gold for $20 and then complaining about human rights violations if the seller doesn’t buy it back for $20 whenever you wish.

Banking customers who open an account in the national currency have a reasonable expectation that the value of their account remain pinned to the value of the national currency. Exchanging that for a precious metal and having an expectation that value not decline would be absurd and I do not see how this analogy makes any sense.

I’m with you there.

But to be clear, the website banking web access is also an app. I don’t think any banking websites function with static HTML anymore – always JavaScript required. So forced execution of non-free software had already taken hold in banking. But now it’s much worse because phone apps are more exclusive, more intrusive, and more imposing.

I’ve not tested a banking app on a rooted phone but what I care about is escaping the ecocidal practice of designed obsolescence whereby people are needlessly forced to buy more new hardware to update their software. So I tried running a banking app on an Android emulator and it refused to run.

So there are 2 show-stoppers for banking apps for me:

• forced patronage of Google – no escape from Playstore (not sure if I’m okay with the Huawei store as an alternative)
• ecocidal designed obsolescence – emulators rejected

If a bank were competent enough to eliminate those two factors, I would also likely demand the app be open source.

My question was more about denominations. I do not know if cashback services allow odd amounts. Most people ask for €20.

But regarding limits, different stores have different limits. Generous stores will let you pull out as much as €150, but often the limit is €20.

Ah, we call that “cashback” when you use a grocery or convenient store cash register like an ATM. I did not get the impression you could ask for any arbitrary amount, but if so then that would solve that problem (case 1).

Oh, actually I’m not sure why I had €20 in mind. Indeed some ATMs can dispense €10. But I don’t think I’ve seen one dispense €5. Some people will miss €9.99 more than others. But regardless, it’s embarrassing that banks don’t have the competency to enable customers to cash out. They have to do a bit of a dance and a hack to get all their money out of the bank.

Can’t you exchange the money in a normal store? That at least used to be possible here.

Not sure what you mean.

If you see a value limit enshrined in the UDHR, feel free to quote it here.

ATMs are a particular kind of cash machine, but cash machines are not necessarily ATM machines. The machine I describe at the grocery store enables customers to pay for their groceries without the cashier having to touch the bank notes. The customer can feed a €50 banknote in the machine, and get back change. The grocery machine handles any denomination. But it’s not an ATM (short for Automatic [bank] Teller Machine).

The bank isn’t depriving you of your property, you agreed to convert your cash into a legally binding right to access cash in the future

It’s not one or the other. It’s both at the same time. Consumers are deprived of their property as a consequence of that agreement. The bank in case 1 currently says: to get your €19.99 back, either open another bank account or fuck off (in so many words).

From there, it comes down to whether you can sign away your human rights.