Codrus
I’m sorry. No I’m saying as a whole that the desire to be selfless, even to suffer for it, would be the most logical reason a concious mind exists—on any planet. Based more off the truth, in my opinion, that we’re the only living things to ever exist (as far as we know) with the most capacity for either ourselves, or everything else. And less because of the idea of a God(s) or creator of some kind for any reason. I added in that the extremes of selflessness like self-sacrifice or service (something for nothing), and especially to resist the inherent need to retaliate, are more difficult to truly live up to, sustainably, without the will that comes from the idea of a God(s) of some kind; which would ultimately be: selflessness.
Humans happen to hold the most capacity for selflessness by a large margin—not only individually, but especially collectively, in contrast to any other living thing is what I’m saying. Not that we’re special or the most advanced because of it or for any other reason; show me the dissertation from Mr. Dolphin or Elephant. Everything else still shit where they eat.
The simple explanation for consciousness is to strive to be as selfless as possible, to even suffer for it.
It’s wrong of you to assume I’m referring to any man made God(s) that’s been held as unquestionably true in all its various forms throughout the centuries. I don’t see then therefore why a hypothetical God—with a big emphasis on to “never to take an oath at all,” based off the knowledge that comes from the perspective and actions of anythings ability to be selfless at all, so unreasonable. Especially considering the substance of the majority of these man made things can be accumulated to: selflessness, to even the most extreme degrees. To be used as an alternative means to respond to what we would consider as hate or evil; to potentially bring about a day where violence, at the very least, is no longer consider relavant.
We’re the only living things that can not only acknowledge our inherency to retaliate but to even strive, even suffer, to do the opposite; to potentially change the heart of the aggressor, by responding to it with love. It’s our ability to reason and logic that leads to these alternative, potential outcomes by doing so. Therefore I can’t help but to see love—selflessness, as logical. Because love used as a response to hate is an appeal to the reasonable, logical thinking side of a consciousness.
Never said anything about anything being less intelligent, only that we’re the most capable of our consciousness by a large margin in contrast. Again, I’m not arguing that we’re any better or worse, or a superior race.
Why? How is the evidence that we’re the only living things to even begin to consider being selfless to the extent a capable concious mind can—on any planet, not be more than enough evidence to prove that that is the most logical explanation for why even one, not to mention a collection of them, exists—on any planet. Wouldn’t this be just as subjective as suffering? But yet you say very plainly that this isn’t a simple explanation, and that there’s no evidence to support it, despite all the evidence that I gave to support my claim all the while. Where do I even begin to imply that we’re this concious on purpose? Now that we’re on the topic, I completely agree, everything is happening to happen, we’ve either stumbled upon conciousness or it was given to us by a creator of some kind; it’s the only logical explanation as to why some of the worst things imaginable happen to the most innocent of people.
It’s sounds like you haven’t much considered the idea of a God or creator of some kind. There was a time I didn’t either, I was an atheist when I was younger for idk maybe 14 ish years. And ironically, it was science that brought me back over to the idea and the legitimacy of a God or creator of some kind, and gave me a reason for all the random: love; selflessness, thus freedom from the evil that life becomes by looking at it that way. “An inactive god:” Miracles are contradictory because it could be Hitler believing in a God, something good from his perspective would happen (captured more Jews for example; something bad) and he would say the same thing anyone else would: “God be praised!” To me, It’s not that a God wants all the evil and suffering in the world, and of course it would want to do something about it and would want it to end, but that wouldn’t be free will. If a God forced us all to be good, then that wouldn’t be very loving would it? But especially we wouldn’t learn together as a species the importance of goodness and virtue if it was just handed over to us. This is what makes morality and the teaching of it so important, we as the dominatly capable concious mind on this planet are the makers of morality; any amount of love or hate, good or evil both begins and ENDS with us. This is why returning the evil you’re met with throughout your life, with love, so important.
There’s a great story in the Christian Bible hidden underneath all the distortion the dogma has created throughout the centuries, Jesus references it in the Gospels as “the sign of Jonah” - Matt 16:4, but it’s from the old testament: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jonah 1&version=NIV This end bit: "And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left—and also many animals?”
Hate, evil, iniquity—are an ignorance; a lack of knowledge. This is what warrants it infinite forgiveness, because some people (like autistic people or those without the education you and I have stumbled upon) can’t even tell from their right hand from their left. This is also what makes the transfer of knowledge (teaching) so important, but not just any knowledge, the value of virtue especially; Socrates said something very similar.
And you said a few comments back that no combination of words etc. For me, the right combination of words were simply: “We can’t beat out all the hate in the world, with more hate; only love has that ability.” - Martin Luther King Jr.
Couple that with the context of who said it and I couldn’t help but to start taking the words themselves, and the logic it connotates, very seriously, and considering it in a whole new, far bigger way.
Oh and on the topic of suffering being subjective: love and hate are quantifiable; morality can be measured. War can easily be measured amongst some of the many terrible forms of hate and evil for example. So yes, the more smaller, mediocre, examples of suffering can by very subjective, but I think it’s safe to say we can agree to go to war is to suffer, and so on. Suffering isn’t as subjective as you think is what I’m saying, but ultimatley what I’m saying regarding the more mediocre examples like displeasure, discomfort, inconvenience, misfortune, these can be seen as not suffering at all, collectively, and to resist them is to stay off the path of eventually losing them, losing the ability to be pleasured, fortunate etc; saps and corrupts a concious mind. But when teaching yourself the opposite, you’re not setting yourself up for inevitable disappointment—because all desire except selflessness is temporary.
Man I knew assuming so much was the wrong way to go but I went and did it anyway lol sorry about that. That’s so amazing you were a pastor by the way, I call them all the time and I praise they’re (not all obviously) warm, massive hearts of gold.
Id add: to see selflessness, including the extremes, as a path not only to begin to stop considering it as suffering at all, but almost as a pleasure; I think the idea of a God or creator of some kind, takes the knowledge that leads to the incentive to do good—set yourself aside and resist yourself, and gives a concious mind the will that’s necessary to live up to it the most. Especially regarding the extremes of it like anger, retaliation, self-sacrifice; in times when it’s the most difficult.
I think it’s love that renders a concious mind most open-minded, and I think it’s the idea of an infinitely forgiving—due to all hate, evil, iniquity being an absence of knowledge—creator or shared origin of everything and the appreciation that comes with seeing a God as having a parents kind of love for you, always cheering you on, opposed to something to fear you into being selfless; an appreciation and a respect for the God sized amount of peace and love it has waiting for you, regardless of anything—I think it’s things like these that lead to the knowledge of the value of virtue and selflessness being taught the most effectively; it being transfered with a concious mind most ready and wiling to consider any newfound influence. I believe this is what determines the extent of one’s ability to imagine, and I believe it’s this that determines one’s capacity for empathy and compassion. This is why I think, amoungst plenty of other reasons, never taking oaths—so to speak, as Jesus put it in my opinion, is so important. Oath taking (considering things as unquestionably true) only hinders the potential of new knowledge, thus a concious minds imagination, and subsequently the extent of its ability to empathize. Just a theory I like sharing due to its potential importance.
What do you think of interpreting what Jesus said regarding “the sign of Jonah,” as him saying that the knowledge to be selfless (the incentive) is an ignorance (a lack of knowledge) and needs to be taught; as well as ignorance (all hate and evil in this case) being infinitely forgiven as a result?
I completely agree regarding existence, even to the point that the nature of existence doesn’t even need explaining, and the need to do so only comes from our inherent sense of self; a worry, fear or need for ourselves; a selfishness; an “evil.” I think this is the level of selflessness Jesus was suggesting. Why even bother, when “we can’t even turn a speck of hair on our head from black to white?” (I think it makes more sense as: from black to white opposed to the opposite) With ultimately, selflessness being what’s most important. And only potentially—due to our uncredibility via our blindness, being men—drawing people away from the idea of a God or creator of some kind, thus a shared origin and a shared purpose: to strive to be as selfless as possible; to be able to acknowledge any of your potentially most barbaric desires, and abstain from them for a purpose other then yourself—God or not. Because it would make sense from any point of view; dare I say: it’s the truth. We absolutely are the most capable of either ourselves or everything else on this planet, so of course the lesser barbaric or more righteous way to live, would be to consider it as exactly what it is: a desire stemming from one amoungst an entire collection of concious beings on a planet—and even toil to resist it.
From the knowledge that comes from experiencing or learning of great hate, evil, and selfishness comes the knowledge and a newfound appreciation for the potential of great love, goodness, and selflessness; even to the point of giving your life for it. I’m sick and tired of hearing about stories like these:
https://apnews.com/article/missouri-execution-christopher-collings-f5a027c86c53725556a5a66751abd36d
Only when we no longer see the fulfillment of our greatest desires as being our highest happiness—individually, are we able to move beyond the inherently self-obssessed barbarian that’s still within all of us, to a future where at least violence is considered obsolete—collectively.
I’m obviously referring to those that cause anyone any amount of suffering, starving children in this case, apparently. Humans are where any amount of morality in the world originate.
While you do that, I’m going to be toiling, even suffering over teaching the youth of today the knowledge that’s required to gain the incentive that’s needed, to even consider the will that’s necessary to be selfless to the extremes of it. And the irrelevance and the hell that comes with living a life revolved around yourself, ultimately.