Please keep in mind that OP is the author of this piece. I have seen in other threads people who have viscerally disliked Their writing and Their opinions, and I ask everyone to treat Them with respect, and to respect Their pronouns, even if you disagree with the concept of capitalized pronouns. Be(e) nice.
Because their opinions are being weaponized to accuse anyone who doesn’t conform to exactly how they wish to be addressed as being bigoted.
This is the same type of rhetoric that DroneRights(now exocrinous after evading multiple bans), used, another narcissist. I think it’s extremely important to differentiate this kind of thing from genuine issues.
You’ve been rather hostile in your comments so far. Knock it off. This is a beehaw community and we expect you to be(e) nice here. Sounds like you’d be best off just disengaging and blocking Grail, tbh.
I’ve been straightforward but not hostile. There is a line where absurdity does not need to be accepted as it devalues real discrimination experienced. When someone literally thinks they’re a god, and expects people to shift how capitalization of all things works to tend to them, that needs to be pointed out as ridiculous. They are not experiencing the discrimination that trans users do.
Judging by the upvotes in this thread I’d say most users agree.
Supremacist worldviews are intolerant and do not deserve tolerance. The question at hand is whether or not OP’s assertions of gender-based divinity are tantamount to supremacist ideology, such as when a cult leader claims their followers (or perhaps descendants of an ancient lineage) are inherently superior.
Also, OP might just be a troll. Remember attack helicopters? Same vibes here.
Good luck, and I do not envy your responsibility in moderating this thread.
I definitely do have to walk a tightrope here, and I am erring towards assuming good faith. A lot of the comments so far have done a great job of pushing back on this, so most of the official actions I have made so far have been to try to prevent tempers from flaring.
But, yeah, I will say that I also am uncomfortable with the implied reverence given with capitalized pronouns. I’ve held my tongue because I don’t want to get sucked into this, and other people have already made my point better than I would have. I don’t want anyone to feel as though I’m disregarding their feelings or ignoring your concerns. Moderation of Beehaw often takes a wait and see approach and actions are often only made after the mod team thoroughly comes to a consensus. But, yeah, the thread’s run its course and we’re locking it now.
Be(e) nice cuts both ways: I don’t find the superiority implication of the capitalization to be nice, and OP’s explanations don’t make me think of anything nice behind them.
It may boil down to something as simple as netiquette, where ALL CAPS MEANS SCREAMING, or AlTeRnAtInG cAsE means mocking… but the explanations seem to point more in the direction of asking to use MASTER/OWNER as someone’s pronouns. Not nice.
There appear to be some logical leaps and conclusion-shopping going on here, so I’m going to try to identify them systematically.
Capitalization of pronouns in the English language is used to denote divinity or royalty. If I refer to Jehovah with a small-h “he,” I haven’t misgendered him, I have blasphemed. I don’t intentionally misgender people (even fictional ones), but I regularly blaspheme gods. I’m an atheist, it’s what we do.
Being a man doesn’t make one part of the patriarchy and doesn’t confer superiority. Being divine ipso-facto makes you superior – both socially and inherently. As I reject the notion that some people are inherently superior to all others, I blaspheme cult leaders who claim to be gods, demigods, or incarnations thereof, and I refuse to give reverence to prophets and monarchs who claim proximity to the divine. I believe this makes the world a better, less exploitative place.
I also see capitalized pronouns used (infrequently) in BDSM. Specifically, it is how some subs refer to their doms when in some extreme forms of 24/7 power exchange relationship. That’s okay, but as with other BDSM activities, power exchange never includes people who didn’t consent to be part of it, and consent is never obligatory. Doms who attempt to extend their authority beyond the confines of a scene are swiftly ridiculed or ostracized for consent violation.
So for anyone to make the claim that capitalized pronouns should be respected by everyone, they must first make the case that divinity is a gender. Second, they must make the case that associating with the divine does not denote inherent superiority. Third, they must make the case that compulsory use of capitalized pronouns is not compulsory submission that would violate consent.
i would have appreciated hearing how the author, personally, found capitalized pronouns to be affirming, because, absent that reasoning, it really does seem like it’s to set up a deferential power dynamic. i don’t really mind respecting the pronouns anyways, but it does mean i don’t really want to be friends with Them until i understand what’s going on there better
Yeah, I agree. For me (a trans woman) it’d make me slightly uncomfortable if somebody capitalised my pronouns each time because I’d feel like some type of power dynamic that’s not comfortable for me to sit in. If that’s not an issue for OP, that’s okay, but with my specific cultural background i’d find it a bit difficult to interact with Them in that way (not that it’s hard for me to respect Their pronouns, just that it’s slightly uncomfortable in a power dynamic way)
My goddess-mother told Me to try out capitalised pronouns after I came out to Her as goddessgender. I liked Them. It doesn’t feel like a power dynamic to Me. I have NPD and I know what NPD supply feels like, and being gendered correctly isn’t it. Having capitalised pronouns used feel like a relief on the same level as when I first transitioned from male to female and had feminine pronouns used. As big a difference as that was, this is. So I don’t know how to verbalise what it feels like except, “It’s gender euphoria”. And I just hope readers understand what having your pronouns used feels like when you’re trans.
So, wait, just to be clear: the writer is claiming that the writer’s gender is not a gender but instead that the writer has some divine status?
M/F/NB/genderqueer/etc aside, human vs divine is not a gender question and this is no longer a discussion about pronouns showing respect and affirmation of gender identity, this is literally a demand for worship.
Hold up, goddessgender?
Oh fuck this is the Swarmgender guy all over again isn’t it
Your delusion doesn’t get to influence what part of a sentence I capitalize. This 100% feels like a narcissist co-opting LGBT issues to force a power dynamic in conversations that lets them play the victim at the slightest mistake.
Judging by your comment history-which I don’t even have to check because you’ve been posting about this for days-that’s exactly what I see happening.
Likewise, a trans person you meet on the street isn’t benefiting from the might of the Roman church. So you’re not supporting hierarchy by using a trans person’s preferred pronouns. By affirming trans men, generally you are dismantling patriarchy, and by affirming trans capitalised pronoun users, generally you are dismantling monotheistic oppression.
So, I want to start by pointing out that this article is directly making a link between capitalization of pronouns, and the specific practice of capitalization as a Christian show of religious reverence.
Worse, if you refused to use a trans man’s preferred pronouns because of this, you’d be guilty of pretty blatant transphobia. I believe refusing to use capitalised pronouns for a trans person who requests them is exactly the same bigotry.
Is the assertion here specifically that capitalization is tied to gender expression, or simply that it is another aspect of a personal identity that should be respected? Obviously neopronouns can be non gender-related, but the article isn’t really making clear if that is the case here or not. If anything, it is quite muddled on this point.
By affirming trans men, generally you are dismantling patriarchy, and by affirming trans capitalised pronoun users, generally you are dismantling monotheistic oppression.
Wooph… The first part of that is by no means a safe assumption. While I would certainly hope that trans men would not seek to enforce a male-dominant gender power dynamic, it is by no means beyond their ability to do so as an intrinsic matter. Now, whether they can benefit from that dynamic in a given time and place is a different discussion, but even in places that do not afford them the systemic backing of the patriarchal system, they can still support and reify it themselves. Any person who attempts to enforce a male-dominant systemic power dynamic can be supporting patriarchy.
The end of that sentence seems to confirm that this is about a show of religious reverence? Or is the assertion that by capitalizing the pronouns of not-the-christian-diety one is inherently attacking Christianity?
I think that if these are simply the neo pronouns that make someone comfortable, it is for the most part fine to request this, but the article is directly drawing the link between capitalized pronouns and religious reverence, and that is not something anyone can demand someone else extend, and not one that is inherently inappropriate not to.
There are plenty of arguments over the limits of neopronoun usage within the neopronoun-using community, but generally neopronouns like “master”, that confer or denote a power dynamic, are considered inappropriate.
This feels like this is skirting that line to me.
There is something very uncomfortable to me about demanding the use of a deferential title, while also insisting that not to do so is a moral wrong, while also claiming not to support hierarchy of peoples… which the creation of distinct and deferential titles would seem to contradict.
So, I want to start by pointing out that this article is directly making a link between capitalization of pronouns, and the specific practice of capitalization as a Christian show of religious reverence.
I felt it would be intellectually dishonest to ignore the biggest historical precedent when writing this article. People always bring up Deus when they see My pronouns, so it’s not like I can just ignore it.
Is the assertion here specifically that capitalization is tied to gender expression, or simply that it is another aspect of a personal identity that should be respected?
Both? I don’t really mind why someone uses capitalised pronouns. For Me personally it’s gender identity; I’m goddessgender. But anyone can use any pronouns. I met a cis guy once who used it/its. Not a gender thing, it just felt more comfortable with its preferred pronouns. Have you ever heard the saying “trans rights are human rights”? When we extend liberties to trans people who need them to survive, we increase everyone’s freedom, because everyone now has that option.
Wooph… The first part of that is by no means a safe assumption. While I would certainly hope that trans men would not seek to enforce a male-dominant gender power dynamic, it is by no means beyond their ability to do so as an intrinsic matter.
I always prefer to start by giving trans people the benefit of the doubt. The consequences of not doing so are a lot worse than a single trans person being a sexist, and the benefit of the doubt can always be revoked in an individual case later. Even so, if I knew a misogynistic trans man, My response to his misogyny would not be to misgender him.
The end of that sentence seems to confirm that this is about a show of religious reverence? Or is the assertion that by capitalizing the pronouns of not-the-christian-diety one is inherently attacking Christianity?
Many christians hold that capitalised pronouns are only for Deus, and that capitalising the pronouns of a mortal is an attack on christianity. I love the kind of christians who respect trans people and other faiths. But the form of christianity which is exclusionary and power-hoarding should be attacked. From the exclusionary christian’s point of view, no matter the identity of the CPU in question, we are capitalising the pronouns of a mortal and therefore challenging Deus’ supremacy by dismantling its symbols. Good. We should do that. And we should also respect whatever the CPU identifies as.
First off, thank You for responding to my questions.
From the exclusionary christian’s point of view, no matter the identity of the CPU in question, we are capitalising the pronouns of a mortal and therefore challenging Deus’ supremacy by dismantling its symbols. Good. We should do that. And we should also respect whatever the CPU identifies as.
I have a few different converging thoughts, and I’ll try to lay them out separately to make sure my question’s premise is clear:
- You acknowledge the power dynamic which people perceive around capitalization of pronouns
- Pronoun capitalization is also used for royalty- not just divinity (e.g. ‘Her Majesty’), so this is not a power dynamic specific to religious people
- You have used un-capitalized pronouns for other people, so at least perceptually, You’re not treating all people as being of this same ‘elevated’ position
- Your neopronouns are not optional; You have insisted that people use them, which is not a universal standpoint on neopronouns; many neopronoun users are fine with people switching between their pronoun sets, or have a ‘fallback’/ auxiliary set
- Words have meaning, and You cannot pretend or decide that other people have to not care about them. That would even be directly hypocritical to insisting others accept the pronouns of Your choice.
- Just to reiterate one last time, there is unquestionably a power dynamic at play, because upending the exclusivity of that deference to figures of authority is one of Your stated reasons (or at least benefits) for using them:
we are capitalising the pronouns of a mortal and therefore challenging Deus’ supremacy by dismantling its symbols. Good. We should do that.
You are forcing them to extend You that same deference, or claiming that Status for Yourself, however You prefer to view it.
But I am struggling to see how Your insistence on this particular set of pronouns does not engender a requirement of people to extend You deference You are (at least by default, demonstrably), not extending to them? (and I am not referring to the exclusionary Religious here, but fellow Beehaw users)
There is a strong debate over using neopronouns like “master/masterself”, “daddy/daddyself”, etc (certainly without auxiliaries), that may create uncomfortable power dynamics for the persons needing to use them. I think this is striking some of us as similar to that, which is I think why You are seeing this much pushback.
On My antirealist discord server, The Outside, all pronouns are capitalised by default. Even pronouns referring to inanimate objects. If someone joins the server who prefers lowercase pronouns, they have to choose a lowercase pronouns role or they’ll be misgendered. People understand and accept an unusual tradition in a space that’s specifically set up that way. But if I go around misgendering lowercase pronoun users in public forums like this, there’s a lot more pushback. Lowercase pronoun users, or LPUs, tend to be a lot more hostile to being misgendered than CPUs like Myself. They’re used to being catered to by society, and when that’s suddenly taken away, it’s a big surprise and they’re not sure how to respond. Us CPUs have accepted that We’re going to have to ask for Our pronouns to be used, and that it’s easier for everyone if We just let the LPUs have this. Maybe in the future it’ll be different, but I really don’t want to be dragged into an argument by an LPU who takes offense and decides to make a scene instead of just asking to have their pronouns respected. I’ve been in that situation before. LPUs are a lot more common than CPUs, besides. There’s another LPU in this thread commenting that she’d be uncomfortable if referred to with capitalised pronouns. And like most LPUs, she’s polite about it.
One point of clarification, when I said that capitalised pronoun use challenges christian monotheism, I meant that it does so by devaluing the pronoun as a symbol of hierarchy. In the eyes of transphobic christians, I’m not the equal of their god, and they are incapable of thinking of Me as such. So if I have similar pronouns to their god, it means pronouns are no longer a symbol of supremacy. That’s the actual side benefit that capitalised pronoun use has in challenging hierarchy, it devalues capitalised pronouns. And I don’t think capitalised pronouns should be valuable, they should be cheap enough that anyone can afford them.
