I don’t understand this weird American obsession with flag. I was looking at some photos of Trump’s rallies. Flags everywhere - on shirts, hats, glasses etc. And this bizarre cult of the flag - “it cannot touch the ground” etc.
At the end of the day the flag is just a piece of cloth. If you worship any flag or take offense to any flag, you need to get a life.
The national flag. What a weird American obsession.
In the UK we call them “flag shaggers” and they are laughing stock.
If you are not trolling and you genuinely don’t see the difference between occasional flag use and everyday cult typical for the USA and for the far right in other countries, you may be even slower than you appear from your comments here.
You seem unaware you’re drunking on yourself here by parroting me.
Zealots are the problems, not the entire population, as I’ve said.
You’re not one of those “readers”, huh?
Did you know that someone lapping you doesn’t mean you’re ahead of them?
You should really try again, that was embarrassing for you.
Real funny on this side, though.
Zealots are the problems, not the entire population, as I’ve said.
You are not the sharpest tool in the box, are you?
In other nations flag cult is limited usually to the far right. Everyone else is using flags sporadically - football events for example.
In the USA flag cult is an everyday occurrence applicable to the most of the population: flags in classrooms, on houses, everywhere. With their bizzare customs “not touching the ground” and other shit. Cult of a piece of cloth.
Do you get it now? If not try to read again. Slowly.
the issue is that even British flag shaggers have nothing on the crazy level muricans take this to.
But that’s not saying I disagree with you.
In Spain, unless it’s for a sports event involving a national team, nobody except fascists show the kind of devotion the Americans show for the flag. Most of the time, people don’t go wearing a flag or carrying one everywhere. Unless they are fascists.
These fascists are protesting against police brutality! Gross!
These disgusting fascists are having fun learning about history and being creative!
Oh look! You found one instance I’m which people were protesting and using the flag against police brutality. Have you ever been in Spain? If you find someone wearing a flag outside an event (ok, not only sports but sometimes also demonstrations) it’s a fascist. In America, people wear them every day, have them in their house, even in their car. They worship the flag. People in Spain don’t. Unless they are fascists.
I’m not going to comment about the second pic because there’s not even a single Spain flag there.
Gotta tell ya, dude- it’s actually no different in the U.S. You’ll see our flag on all of those products and more:
It’s just that the people who throw big fits about the flag (who also use things like flag napkins) don’t realize the hypocrisy. They will happily eat greasy fried chicken off of that plate and wipe the grease off of their mouths with that napkin and wad it up and throw both of them in the trash will then turn around and talk about someone disrespecting the flag.
I’m as far from a flag shagger as you’ll get; but slapping the union flag on the roof of a Mini isn’t about patriotism, it’s about the selling point of how the UK, and specifically London, was the epicentre of cool in the ‘60s. In this case, the flag is merely a design that represents something else.
This isn’t running it up a pole every morning to prove how much you love your country.
Preaching to the choir.
Extremists are the problem, not cars.
One of their points is that only Americans have branded their clothing and accessories with the flag; those examples show that isn’t true.
Yeah, true. But two of your examples appear to be sporting events, where it’s very, very common to find people waving their national flags. That’s not really product branding, that’s just how it is.
I’m no nationalistic fanatic of the flag, but is it really so difficult to understand that the flag is a symbol?
Obviously each flag, be they for nations or other groups, represents more than just a piece of cloth to many people. Taking offence at someone else’s identifying with what a flag symbolizes is not okay. But, I tend to look skeptically at worship of any kind of idol, be it flag, cross, or text. That still doesn’t mean it’s okay to hate or persecute people for their beliefs, even if they appear silly to you and as long as they don’t hurt others.
One group can demonstrate their respect for the nation by physically following some rules around the flag and others can demonstrate their loyalty to their ideals of the nation being violated by flying the flag upside down or burning a flag.
A flag or banner is not just a piece of cloth, never has been.
IMHO human beings are more important than stupid symbols. If you don’t respect humans and their non violent choices, the symbol lost all its meaning, especially the one about being the “land of the free”.
Warning: my takes on this are probably even more unpopular than the OP. I typically don’t mention them to avoid whining, but since we’re in a comm for unpopular opinions, might as well speak my mind.
A country flag is neither a symbol of your people, nor of the general population under the same government as you. It’s the symbol of the government itself - an abstract entity, best seen as some sort of tool.
People who wave flags strongly remind me cows shaking their arses to show that they’ve been branded as property. “MOO! I’M PROUD OF BEING OWNED! MOO!”
Against the above, some might argue that their governments’ flags used to represent some popular movement, or similar. Well, it is not your flag any more; co-opting symbols is bread-and-butter of exerting soft power over you.
And if you do feel the need of a flag for your identity… sorry to be blunt but you have millions of identities at your disposal; if the one that you pick is what subjects you, you probably need to touch some grass.
“But the president/king/minister said that…” - of course governments will tell you otherwise, it’s convenient for them. But, most likely, not for you.
If you want to get technical about it, it’s a symbol of a nation’s military. That was what national flags were originally for.
I understand your view, but it depends on your country. In Denmark the flag is used in a different way in everyday life I think. And I would say there are good reasons to be proud of Denmark as a country and the people have done well to own the flag themselves in this way. But yea, it can also be used in bad ways.
My vaugue understanding as a dumb American is that folk in other countries by and large aren’t about repping flags in the first place, flying them, wearing them, etc
Not in the same way. In the US I believe you swear to the flag or something? Which seems super strange to me.
In Denmark the flag is used in basically any celebration, especially birthdays. It’s common to have a cake with as many flags on as your age (usually for kids).
I can’t speak for other countries, but here in the UK the National flags tend to be flown for two reasons:
- Sporting events
There are shit loads of St George crosses being flown at the moment, because the England team has got through the Euro football finals. If we lose tonight, they’ll begin to disappear tomorrow.
- “Patrotism”
You’ll mostly see the Union flag being flown in areas of high racism. Deprived areas, where people have been made to believe that forrins took their jobs and welfare money. They display the flag to show that they’re “true Brits”, unlike all those brown folk.
Outside of this it’s quite unusual for regular people to display either of the national flags. I can’t say I’ve ever owned one, and I’m in my 40s. That said, I’m not terribly nationalistic. I’m proud of my country in terms of how it looks, and how we (now) preserve our long history, but I’m also painfully aware of the failings of the UK, and more specifically, England over the past few centuries.
Sorry for the battering of rhetorical questions, but…
…what is “to be proud of a country”?
Achievements of people from the past? But you see people with laudable achievements through the whole world. Why specifically those associated with your country, instead of, say, another? And more importantly, why aren’t we proud of what we, as individuals, do with our present?
Proud of a culture? I get that people relate to others sharing their culture; but contrariwise to what that Napoleonic meme says (with all its disgusting implications), countries don’t need to coincide with cultures. Cue to Switzerland, a clusterfuck since HRE times, faring far better than a Portugal who has been culturally homogeneous since 1100.
And even demarcating cultures, gets tricky and arbitrary. It’s all a bunch of continua. Eventually this sort of proudness will boil down to “I’m drawing the line HERE. This one is from this side of the line, so I’m proud of them. That one isn’t, so who cares.”
Is it being proud of your impact on others, through your everyday interactions? But most people in a country - even a small one (more like Andorra than Denmark) - are not meaningfully affected by you.
So, to keep it short: every single thing that we could be proud of, as human beings, is better serviced by either a smaller or bigger identity.
No need to be sorry :)
Achievements of people from the past?
[…]
Is it being proud of your impact on others, through your everyday interactions?
Definitely more the latter rather than the former. There is a great deal of trust in Danish society. There is a shared understanding, community and culture that Danes are proudly part of - proud because we believe it is a good culture (and I think the happiness scores that get released every so often for different countries speak for themselves).
But most people in a country - even a small one (more like Andorra than Denmark) - are not meaningfully affected by you.
I don’t see it like that. Yes, someone living in the other part of Denmark doesn’t directly affect me of course. But I do think they meaningfully affect me, even if in a small part. I think Denmark is still small enough that it matters that someone in the big city in the other part of the country is still connected to me by culture and a shared “zeitgeist”, if that makes sense.
Anyways, I hope you can maybe understand that for some people, there can be such a thing as being proud of your country. You don’t have to understand fully though, I understand it can be hard coming from another culture (also it’s not like I speak for all Danes obviously and some would certainly disagree with what I’m saying here). I would encourage you to try visiting Denmark one day and maybe see for yourself :)
I get it. It’s not really a true choice though. Like bring born in the United States makes it difficult to move and become a citizen elsewhere, where I could waive a different flag (of choice).
It’s a simple as being born into it and being prideful of whatever it is you are. Typical pride involves surname, race/ethnicity, religion, state, country, brands of things… I mean… It’s whatever one is proud of having. Some things are by choice and others are by birth. 🤷
The difference between country and all those other “not a true choice” things that you listed is pointlessness.
A surname is still about your kin. Race is arguably also about kin*. Religion will probably dictate your behaviour, or at least principles. Brand is a damn silly identity, but I get that - it’s still about things that you enjoy.
Country though? In larger countries this boils down to “land that you never saw, people whom you’ll never interact”. In smaller ones it boils down to “a fraction of the lands you saw, and people whom you interacted with”. All because you pay taxes to the same government?
*I say “arguably” because race is still a damn silly identity, unless you use it to highlight oppression and gather other people to end said oppression. But past that I don’t think that anyone should see themself as an Amerindian, a black person, a white person, but rather as simply “a person”.
Brand is a damn silly identity, but I get that - it’s still about things that you enjoy.
I completely agree. Especially when someone gets so upset about criticism of their preferred OS owner (Apple vs. Android fanatics).
I’ll also add sports teams into the mix. Some people get so ravenous about their support for a certain team, or criticism of said team.
Nationalism is part of fascism. Just a FYI, it used to be illegal to make clothes out of the US flag. It’s only because of capitalism that it changed. And yes, any nation that goes flag crazy is stupid. Why do people fly a flag at their residence? We know what country we are in.
Nationalism is part of fascism.
Being nationalistic in itself doesn’t in any way imply fascism.
But nationalism is still a key component of fascism. Or do you know a fascist system that is or was not nationalistic?
You’re correct, but it’s a non sequitur comment. There was no reason to point out the coincidental fact that “nationalism is part of fascism” and they’re right to refute the suggestion that fascism is implied by nationalism. It’s the other way around.
They may have been trying to implicitly claim that the US is fascist and that’s why it’s nationalistic. But… that’s not what fascism is - fascism is not a collection of traits but a small group of distinct class-collaborationist ideologies. The USA is liberalist, and that has resulted in it being an ultranationalist, militarist, socially-stratified state easily compared with fascist states.
US Flag Code:
And nationalism is astonishingly thinly veiled racism.
"There are two types of patriotism, although sometimes the two are mingled in the same breast. The first kind one might call nationalism; nationalists believe that all other countries are inferior in every respect and that one would do them a favour by dominating them. Other countries are always in the wrong, they are less free, less civilized, are less glorious in battle, are perfidious, prone to falling for insane and alien ideologies which no reasonable person could believe, are irreligious and abnormal. Such patriots are the most common variety, and their patriotism is the most contemptible thing on earth.
The second type of patriot is best described by returning to the example of General Fuerte. General Fuerte did not believe in ‘my country, right or wrong’; on the contrary, he loved his land despite the faults that he could so clearly see and that he labored to correct. It was his frequently stated opinion that anyone who supported his country when it was so obviously in the wrong, or who failed to see its faults, was the worst kind of traitor. Whereas the first kind of patriot really glories in his own irrationality and not in his country, General Carlo Maria Fuerte loved his country as a son loves his mother or a brother his sister."
–Louis de Bernieres, ‘The War for Don Emmanuel’s Nether Parts’
