I thought sex was determined at time of fertilization by the chromosomes. If a sperm carrying a Y chromosome meets an egg carrying an X chromosome, won’t the resulting fetus always be male? Is that not the case?
This is how it is
This is in fact not how it is–hence the down votes.
Sex determination is a complicated mechanism that isn’t solely reliant upon chromosomes.
The “XX is female and XY is male” take is a reductionist rudimentary explanation for the nominal case used to teach children about the basics. In reality there are more combinations than just those two for human chromosomes, and there are situations that cause different manifestations and development periods regardless of one’s chromosomes.
Sure, most of the time that’s how it is, but it isn’t universal. Which is why using some pseudoscientific “chromosomal truther” interpretation to define either sex or gender is a bad, alienating ideology.
Ok you explained that that was the kid version but didn’t explain the not kid version.
Zygote is XY or XX (at conception, which is generally understood as male, female) ??? Male baby, female baby
It’s the ??? Or before part that I’m struggling to understand. Is it the low percentage of deviations that make it not definite at conception?
Fwiw I want you to be right. I see that gonadal sex is effectively female until male, but again the male part was predefined at conception.
Initial development trends toward “female” characteristics. If an embryo has XY chromosomes then normally a gene on the Y chromosome will start to express which pivots development toward “male” characteristics.
If there’s a mutation on the responsible part of the Y chromosome then that expression may not happen stunting the development of “male” characteristics.
Certain disorders can prevent the development of sex organs entirely which can lead to the testes failing to develop and subsequent hormone releases to not happen stunting the development of “male” characteristics.
Other disorders can result in the initial sex organ development, but prevent adequate hormone production which stunts the development of “male” characteristics.
Since “male” characteristics occur later in the development cycle (and not always when they’re otherwise “supposed” to) at the point of conception all zygotes are of “the sex that produced the large reproductive cell” and since the current administration views zygotes as fully developed people the current administration accidentally classified all humans as female.
Incidentally there being multiple methods by which one’s sex can be determined incongruously from the typical indication of one’s chromosomes is just one reason why anti-trans bigotry is stupid.
People are pointing out is that at conception there is only one cell, the fertilized egg / zygote. So everyone would have only the “large reproductive cell” (the egg). It’s honestly so poorly written that you could also argue it’s saying everyone’s bigender too
But as an aside, it’s actually not even true that XY guarantees someone will be assigned male at birth.People with Swyer syndrome present AFAB or intersex while having XY chromosomes
The opposite is true for people with de la Chapelle syndrome where they have XX chromosomes and present AMAB / intersex.
Many people with either of those never know they have XY or XX . There’s also way more possibilities than just XX and XY. You can have XXY, XXYY, just X, and more
Not the case at all. Remember, biology is way more complicated than you think. As a starter, there is chromosomal and hormonal sex. Chromosomal sex (X and Y chromosomes) generally determines hormonal sex. But… the gene that determines hormonal sex (SRY) can sometimes get knocked off the Y and onto the X. Or off the Y and onto nothing. Or a bunch of other things. And hormonal sex can get disrupted in a bunch of ways, so that you end up with people who are intersex or seem to be cis female until puberty when they grow a penis. Or who appear to be cis female until they have problems conceiving and find out they are XY but don’t have testosterone receptors. Or any of a thousand other things that make sex determination complicated.
Biology is statistical not deterministic and with 7 billion people there are going to be a lot of edge cases.
I didn’t close my eyes or ears and learned that there are many variations of biological sex, regardless of gender identity. Trisomies are the most common X and Y chromosome variants.
XXY (Klinefelter syndrome)
XXX (Trisomy X)
XYY
Less common are “tetrasomies,” which denote the presence of four sex chromosomes:
XXYY
XXXY
XXXX
Still rarer are the “pentasomies,” indicating five sex chromosomes:
XXXXY
XXXXX
These conditions can cause male presenting genitalia but female presenting bodies (facial structure, body structure, etc.) THey can present as the opposite. They can present as just male or female external genitalia or a mix of both. Even if we ignore gender identity, which is what “sex” people feel within their brains, just in biological sex there are more than binary options.
As I write this and read your global warming sentence I think you meant the authors of the executive order when you said “you guys”? I can’t tell how to interpret your comment anymore.
Exactly. Just wait until Donnie realises technically all cis-males are trans, as all fetuses start off as female and only begin transitioning to being male six weeks into their existence
I mean they’re obviously arguing chromosomal sex is the end all be all
while it is true the gonads and external genitalia of embryos appear the same regardless of chromosomal sex it is also true that generally that embryo will develop sex characteristics in weeks 7-12 based on chromosomal assignments that occurred at conception.
The xy embryos have the presence of the sry gene on the Y chromosome which triggers development of gonads into testes, testosterone, and amh. Wolffian ducts become early stages of a penis, amh causes Müllerian ducts to regress
Xx embryos lack sry gene obviously, which allow the gonads to become ovaries. The wolffian ducts regress without amh and the Müllerian ducts become early stages of a vagina
Then week 12+ is when uterus/prostate start
That said biological sex is obviously much more complex than this. Intersex people exist. And there’s a great deal of variation in that.
Gonadal dysgenesis can occur when the gonads do not fully develop into testes or ovaries, incomplete or ambiguous genitalia.
True hermaphroditism can occur where both ovary and testicular tissue is present, again usually leading to ambiguous genitalia (no futas)
Androgen insensitivity can lead to ambiguous genitalia or in some cases an xy person with female external genitalia
Alternatively excess androgen can cause masculinized genitalia in xx people
Kleinfelters (xxy) can give underdeveloped testes, infertility, and low testosterone
Turners (x) underdeveloped ovaries, infertility
And this just kind of hand waves all those people away. Do you feel like your identity is linked to the fact that you’re in this minority and maybe doesn’t match what people perceive you to be? Are you an xy person with female genitalia because of androgen insensitivity who feels that your genitalia don’t match who you are. Well technically you’re a guy now I guess by these rules although we all know they mean “if you look like a chick you’re a chick”
And this all is besides the scientific evidence on transgender neurology, which is large and growing.
The bed nucleus of stria terminals is associated with gender identity and is typically smaller in cis women and larger in cis men. In amab trans women it tends to be similar to that of cis women
Cortical thickness of trans individuals tends to align more closely with their preferred gender
Trans people tend to show brain connectivity patterns in regions associated with self perception and body image aligned with their identity
Etc. this is already a novel. And this doesn’t even touch upon the *many many * more things at play here like genetics and epigenetics, prenatal neural developments and hormonal factors, social structures around gender (though tbf they did somewhat touch on this if only to outright deny its validity without offering any real rationale other than “we think it’s dumb”)
But these people obviously don’t give a shit about any of this. They’ll negate it, attack the source, outright deny the claims with no counter evidence, etc. or they’ll just do what they’re currently doing, remain completely ignorant on the topic and seize authority and power to implement their will regardless of the scientific consensus.
Dark times but fuck them. You don’t need the governments approval to express yourself. although I do recognize this will probably be an absolute nightmare for anyone who has not gotten a name change, modified birth certificate, drivers license, etc. if you haven’t done that maybe do it asap, especially for federal documents like passports (especially if you plan to bail on this shithole)
Thank you!
I hate these “gotcha” responses like the “everyone is female” thing.
Of the many MANY ways that “biological sex” can be determined (phenotype, hormone, etc) the ONLY one that exists at the time of conception when we’re not even talking embryo stage yet because there’s only one fertilized cell (or two if you want until mitosis begins) is chromosomal sex.
“But we’re all female at first” isn’t going to hold up in court, and it’s NOT going to save trans lives. We need to do better.
Except XX male syndrome is a thing, where externally individuals present male but have female karyotype. So are those people female despite having functional male genitalia? And that’s only one of a myriad of situations where an individual’s chromosomes don’t reflect what their phenotype is like nor their biological reproductive function. Chromosomes are NOT an infallible indicator of biological sex.
Also the text of the law says nothing about chromosomes. It indicates from conception the cells that produce the large gamete are considered female, and cells that produce the small gamete are considered male. No one is producing gametes at conception. It also completely disregards anyone who produces no gametes at all. At best this law has declared everyone to have no biological sex whatsoever.
I want to be clear that I disagree with the EO; it’s not well written, has holes, and (most importantly) is ethically abhorrent. Your first paragraph gives many examples, good job.
But accurate understanding is crucial to effective resistance.
“Sex at time of conception” can ONLY be interpreted as chromosomal sex, as there is no other means of determining sex at that time of development.
The EO doesn’t concern itself with which gametes a person ACTUALLY produces, only which ones they WOULD produce based on the zygote’s (chromosomal) sex.
I’m so glad he is fixing important things like this, instead of wasting his time on housing and food and energy! /s
What are you taking about? He’s full on on energy. He expand drilling in the US so oil companies can produce more oil, even though we already have a ton of oil in the US. Increase supply of something that is already abundant so that they can sell it at a lower cost at the pump. Genius!
https://www.npr.org/2025/01/20/nx-s1-5268653/energy-emergency-trump-oil-evs
I went to the store today and I’m afraid that Eggs still cost the same as a week ago.
6 fucking dollars for a dozen eggs this weekend. No more bacon and egg sandwiches. Now it’s bacon and bacon sandwiches.
Wait… I’m not seeing a downside here.
oh come on, give trump a couple days to find the lever labeled “Fuel Price”
those reduced taxes on the rich and no regulations should trickle down eventually (into the local water supply)
