cross-posted from: https://lemm.ee/post/51182148
What we need is degrowth and a transition away from capitalism.
I’m glad this got press.
Such slowdowns tend to be good for the average person.
They’re bad for speculators, investors, shareholders – mostly rich people who are too moneyblind to see that endless growth is untenable. To those people, I say: fuck you.
Your thinking of disinflation, not deflation…
Ask the average person how great the Great Depression really was to live through.
Up until the 20th century it wasn’t uncommon to have cycles of inflation and deflation.
https://iamkate.com/data/uk-inflation/
The reason deflation is so highly feared is because it increases the value of debt. In particular, government debt. China owns large parts of the debt of the US. Deflation makes them stronger.
Not exactly. Deflation basically slows down the economy. If you think your money will worth more tomorrow, then you are less likely to invest/spend them.
But the whole purpose of money is to be used. Money is a tool, the oil that facilitates trade and keeps the economy going. And while too much money(oil) can overheat the economy(inflation), too little money can straight up bring the economy to a halt(deflation).
Deflation, even in small amounts, is more dangerous, thats why ideally you prefer having a small amount of inflation.
If you think your money will worth more tomorrow, then you are less likely to invest/spend them.
I see this argument being thrown around a lot. How does it work when a fair share of people are not doing investment at all, and are unable to spend the bare minimum to live, to begin with?
I ask this because the argument of “people will spend less” only works with people that spend extra money on unnecessary things, which is becoming less and less of a thing.
Because no matter what proportion of the population they are, many many businesses are kept afloat by discretionary spending. Be that TVs, laptops, clothing, grooming, beauty products, heath+fitness, cars, holidays, tourism, travel, even house moves.
These are all things that can be ‘put off a little while’ if there’s serious prospect of your money going further. Which, as OP says, slows the economy and makes deflation worse… The thing that suffers in the meantime is cash flow in these businesses (and dependent businesses) and an extended period of slow trade with no prospect of it ending would see many of them go to the wall. See: covid. Had governments not acted it would have naturally led to deflation. That’s not the reason they acted though, they pumped money into the economy because long before deflation/inflation would have been a worry bankruptcy would have cut deep into thousands of regular ‘good’ businesses. (So they over inflated and then we had globally crap price inflation but still the risk of an economy wide shut down was that bad…)
“The economy” in this instance being a playground for the rich.
People won’t stop paying for food or rent just because their money might be worth a little more tomorrow. They won’t skip buying minor entertainments just because maybe their meager salaries might be worth a little more next week.
Deflation is poison for the owner class, not the working class.
“The economy” in this instance being a playground for the rich.
People won’t stop paying for food or rent just because their money might be worth a little more tomorrow.
Indeed, people won’t stop paying for everyday necessities, but the economy consists of more than just individual people: there’s the state and there are businesses too. You conflate the latter with “the rich”, which is generally true for corporations, but corporations are not the only form of business; there are cooperatives, partnerships, and others which can distribute profits more fairly. In any case, deflation affects all businesses, including fair ones, and the state itself. As another commentator suggested, money is meant to change hands and should never become an asset worth holding.
They won’t skip buying minor entertainments just because maybe their meager salaries might be worth a little more next week.
Have you never seen somebody wait for a sale to make purchases? Or cut coupons? “The poor” frequently put off purchases to save some money.
Deflation, even in small amounts, is more dangerous, thats why ideally you prefer having a small amount of inflation.
This is only accurate if you measure economic success by “Corporate profits”.
Deflationationary phases are very helpful for the working class, as their dollar now buys MORE things. Like food. And housing. And health care.
Deflationary periods may be helpful to those with large amounts of cash or cash equivalents, which generally isn’t the working class. Wage growth outpacing inflation helps the working class more.
Deflationationary phases are very helpful for the working class, as their dollar now buys MORE things. Like food. And housing. And health care.
What kind of braindead take is that? The working class? The same working class that majorly lives paycheck to paycheck and can’t even afford an unexpected $500 expense?
What dollars do you think they are going to have in a deflationary economy after they get laid off?
“Deflationationary phases are very helpful for the working class, as their dollar now buys MORE things. Like food. And housing. And health care.”
Shhh can’t be having that. Don’t worry, we beat inflation. Everything is just more expensive now. Deal with it.
I agree on the money thing. I view money like potential and kinetic energy and its only in use that it has real value and at rest it basically has potential value that will only be determined when used. It annoys me the government only does half of what keynes advized. The downturn activity and never do the good times activity.
China owns large parts of the debt of the US. Deflation makes them stronger.
I don’t follow you here. How does deflation in China make the debt of the US stronger? Am I understanding you wrong?
If the renminbi appreciated over time against the US dollar, dollar-denominated debt held by the People’s Republic would yield less and less, wouldn’t it?
- Inflation makes the purchasing power of a dollar smaller
- Deflation makes the purchasing power of a dollar larger
I owe you $100. Over time the value of that $100 debt goes down with price inflation. You charge me interest to make up for this fact and make some profit also.
If prices deflate the value of the $100 debt goes up, but you’re still going to charge me interest. When I pay you back, not only can you buy more with the $100 than I could when I borrowed it, you’ve charged me for the privilege.
Thank you for expanding on your point. What I did not and still do not understand is the following part of your original comment:
China owns large parts of the debt of the US. Deflation makes them stronger.
Deflation in China –that’s where deflation might occur or even be occuring– would not make the US Treasuries held by China more valuable, would it? Only deflation in the US, with the dollar appreciating, would have that effect, right?
While consumers can benefit from falling prices, persistent deflation can also lead to a downward spiral for spending and investment.
This seems like an absolute win.
The obsession with companies needing to post increasing profits every single year is frankly baffling. Let’s say a company makes X amount in profits in 2024, and everyone—employees, shareholders, stakeholders—are happy and well-compensated. Why should the expectation be that profits must increase in 2025, even if the company is already performing well? The only explanation that comes to mind is greed. It seems like the focus is less on long-term sustainability or fairness and more about feeding the insatiable hunger of CEOs and executives who just want more—more profits, more bonuses, more power. It’s as if they’re modern-day dragons, hoarding wealth for the sake of hoarding, rather than for the health of the business or the people within it.
It’s how the financial system works. Money is created out of loans that need to be paid back with interest, and the money for that interest comes out of other loans made by other people. It creates an ever increasing mountain of debt, and it pushes businesses to keep growing to stay ahead of their interest payments. The ones that don’t are bought up by the ones that do. Naturally the most greedy and sociopathic float to the top in this system.
And so you get the eternal search for more things to exploit to keep growing and more profit. These things are baked in at a fundamental level.
Unfair redistribution is an issue, but it’s a bit orthogonal from deflation issues. I think people expect to get opportunities, promotions, new jobs, raising salary etc. this works better with a little inflation.
You can have inflation and lower profits, no issue there. The unit of account shifting in value has some, but ultimately little, impact on how much of the value-add companies keep for themselves, or how much their business expands or contracts. The same percentage of a less valuable unit of account is a larger number, but still the same percentage.
People like when if their rent is suddenly a lower percentage of their wages, they don’t really care about the absolute numbers.
That’s a factor, yes, but deflation can easily make a company unprofitable.
Let’s say a company makes X amount in profits in 2024, and everyone—employees, shareholders, stakeholders—are happy and well-compensated. Why should the expectation be that profits must increase in 2025, even if the company is already performing well?
Many of the products and services that businesses depend on will or might raise in price. This is by design; most central banks target a low inflation rate, often around 2%. Without an increase in profits, raising prices on inputs will eat away at a business’ profit margin.
That would mean I need to work fewer hours, to buy the same things?
If so, how is that bad?
Usually when a company has less work over a prolonged period, it’s not just going to reduce worked hours, it’s going to reduce the number of workers.
“The people are tired of experts” stupidity apparently knows no political borders.
You can find an “expert economist” to paint you any picture you like. I mean, hell, we still have people in the US thinking trickle down economics is a rule that works. To the point it’s even flooded into the housing market, where people still believe that building luxury housing with tax dollars is a way to create cheap housing.
Whinnie the pooh whinnie the pooh…
