-8 points

It’s pretty simple actually, I’m not voting for him.

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0 points

I was going to have a witty exchange with you and have an example of what you’re doing, but frankly I’m tired.

I’m tired of everything about you people.

So, I’m just going to block you.

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-1 points

Bye, Felicia.

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-1 points

Why do people feel the need to publicly announce blocks?

Block me as well. Don’t forget to chant the blocking user hymn in a reply to me!

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2 points
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2 points

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-4 points
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Apparently not voting for the Diet Fascist party means you automatically voted for the Fascist party. The mental gymnastics of these election meme spammers are wild to behold.

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-3 points

Remember, voting is not the same as support. But also, voting third party is supporting Trump.

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6 points
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Voting third party, or not voting, is choosing inaction. It’s still a choice. The basic trolley problem of the trolley will kill 10 people if you don’t pull the lever but 1 if you do is analogous to this. Choosing to not divert the trolley is still a choice. However, you’re not culpable for the fact that people are tied to the rails in general. You’re only accountable for the thing you had power over.

We don’t have the ability to have a third candidate elected, or to change the candidates who are running. We can only elect one of the two. It’s really very simple. It’s the absolute basic thing you’ll learn in probably the first day of an ethics course. If you can’t understand the bare minimum, we’ll I don’t know what to say except that I’m sorry. It is pretty weird to argue you have the moral high ground and to struggle with basic ethics though.

Edit to add: There are also other actions you can take outside of voting to try to change opinion and create action that agrees with you. Do those. However, I promise one of the two candidates will never listen to you, and most likely will make it hard to impossible to take these other actions.

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6 points

“The only thing necessary for evil to triumph in the world is that good men do nothing.” But hey, I’m sure those good men felt the same way you do.

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-1 points

That quote is such a funny thing. My mom once quoted it to me as a reason to support the Iraq War. I didn’t even know how to respond to that because it was so completely backwards. The way I saw it, the invasion of Iraq was evil triumphing because good people did nothing to stop it.

That’s how I feel about you saying it to me now. Evil is triumphing in Gaza precisely because people aren’t willing to take a stand on it.

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2 points

Ahhh yes, the oh so helpful stand of not voting for a party that could win.

Like, you do understand that Harris likely means fewer dead Palestinians than trump, yes? This isn’t complicated.

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1 point

Does everyone see how this person offers nothing but contrarian nonsense disguised as ethics lessons?

Please call them out and move on. Don’t waste time on this.

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2 points
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I am doing something. I’m voting for the issues at my doorstep. I have a gay child, and a non-binary child. I have another that is autistic.

If Trump wins, there’s a non-zero chance that my children will be in danger.

I’m also an advocate for the homeless (don’t correct me. I used to be homeless, and we hate “unhoused”),.

I advocate for foster youth, a sector no politician cares about.

All you do is complain about one issue. There’s scores of issues. Jill Stein isn’t happening. Vote in reality, and for reproductive rights, non-cis rights, rights for the homeless, and for someone that will actually win.

I won’t say a vote for Jill is a vote for Trump.

A vote for Jill is the same as not voting. I tell people that didn’t vote “you don’t vote, you don’t have a right to bitch”

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-1 points
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Right, because Trump is pro Palestine. Why don’t you do something that will actually help. And I’m not talking about voting…

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1 point

The Iraq war protests were huge. But the protests didnt matter.

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2 points
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4 points

No one said you’re voting for him, but not voting against him is absolutely enabling him while simultaneously saying that you’re completely fine with either outcome.

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-5 points

Only in the sense that I am “enabling” every single event happening in the world right now.

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0 points

Yeah. I’m not arguing with your sarcasm. Have a good day.

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1 point
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2 points

Come on man… read the rules.

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3 points

If you had to vote for Trump or Kamala, which would you choose?

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1 point

Don’t waste your time with this person. They’re only interested in giving smug ethics lessons that don’t even apply to the situation. Maybe it makes them feel superior to everyone? Who knows, but it’s a waste of time either way.

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1 point

Trust me, I’m well aware of Objection.

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-8 points

I wouldn’t. I’d stay home.

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0 points

Not an option in this hypothetical.

Can you answer the simple question?

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41 points

But Palestine hurr Durr

You dumb fucks know how many more Palestine’s there’s gonna be if he gets in? You can kiss Ukraine goodbye, and probably hong kong too. This is nothing.

2016-2020 was the beta test. If this goes into production we’re all fucked.

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37 points

You dumb fucks know how many more Palestine’s there’s gonna be if he gets in?

It seems like such a basic concept; trump means more dead Palestinians. How can someone simultaneously claim to support Palestinians and advocate for more dead Palestinians?

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-2 points
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13 points

Advocating against voting for Democrats, no matter what the particular language, is advocating for actions that will increase the chances of Trump getting elected, of Republicans having majorities and of Israel’s further escalation in Palestine, in addition to all the other bad things Republicans will do.

The time to move Democrats on the issues is not now. Those times were during the primaries (in which I voted uncommitted on the presidential level and for pro-palestinian candidates on other levels) and after the election through things like lobbying.

If there are particular third-party candidates who have any reasonable chance of winning rather than being a spoiler (I don’t know of any), it’s reasonable to advocate to their electorate that one vote for them instead of the Democratic candidate. However, if one supports Palestinians and opposes genocide, the best vote in the presidential election and in most national or state elections on November 5 is for the Democratic candidate. That’s not a “vote blue no matter who” opinion or an “all you need to do is vote for the Dems” opinion. It’s harm reduction in the short term so that we can ensure that there actually are medium and long terms for as many people as possible.

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15 points

You dumb fucks know how many more Palestine’s there’s gonna be if he gets in? You can kiss Ukraine goodbye, and probably hong kong too. This is nothing.

Tankies would love that, though.

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0 points
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5 points

I echo the sentiment (regarding Trump being a much, much worse outcome), but you can already “Kiss Hong Kong goodbye”. It’s part of China, they have cracked down, and the two systems has been reduced to like 1.5 systems ahead of schedule.

I am genuinely curious what you think either presidential candidate would do about this, considering they will continue to espouse the One China policy. Where they might differ is in their support of Taiwan, whose status is much more murky.

Hong Kong though? Pretty sure that ship sailed once the UN decided: no Empire no longer, and the 99 year lease came to an end.

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-3 points
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5 points

Nah china already has that under control with their summer camps and organ harvesting

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6 points

Ope sorry I meant Taiwan

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5 points

Lol, yeah this makes more sense. Thanks for clarifying 😅

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-31 points

If you’re not in a swing state, and Harris is going to win your state easily, it’s fine to vote for a third party. If there’s even a slim chance she is going to lose your state, you can’t justify it. Harm reduction, guys.

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34 points
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No. Your vote still counts. Don’t throw it away on a third party “just because.”.

Vote third party in your local elections, where they actually can do something. Get them into the system. Do not waste it on a zero chance presidential election.

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-6 points

Voting for the Dems, a centrist party, in a non swing state, IS throwing your vote away. It will not make a difference and you’re not expressing who you really support. The point of voting is (in order) to (1) reduce the terrible shit that’s happening in our country and (2) to express your political preferences. If you’re in a swing state you cannot do (1) by voting, and if you vote for the Dems you cannot do (2), assuming you’re not a shitty centrist.

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19 points

got invited to a 2016 watch party my a political junky friend. room full of people talking about how awesome it was that hillary would just win so they got to pick their dream 3rd party and make a statement with their vote. i didn’t even stay to watch my state get called. they were crushed by the realization that so many people were in fact exactly who they’d said they are. couldnt watch them experiance that, couldn’t find any sympathy to offer them.

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-4 points

Those people didn’t even look at a poll (which were actually fairly accurate that year)? They didn’t even check to see if Hillary was within ten points of losing their state (a greater margin of error than any modern polling miss)? That’s on them. That’s not what I’m advocating here.

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10 points

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23 points

There is no such thing as “not a swing state” in this election. Take it from me, a Georgian: in 2020, my state wasn’t a swing state until all of a sudden it was. If people here took your advice, the Democrats would’ve lost the Senate that year.

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-4 points
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I’m in Washington. The Dems are not losing Washington. You’re in Georgia. The Dems stand a good chance of losing Georgia. That’s the difference.

I think people forget what it’s like to not live in a swing state. I haven’t seen an ad for a presidential candidate all year.

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13 points

No.

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harm reduction has a specific meaning. voting is not harm reduction.

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17 points

As a Californian I’d have agreed with you except I think even a vote here signals something we need: the dire need to get rid of the electrical college. If Harris wins the national popular vote 60-40, it’s even more obvious how busted it is. She wins Senate and House? You might see change. At least, as likely as a 60-40 win, lol.

That said, let’s be honest, Green hasn’t deserved a vote in decades. I really wish they’d try smaller races they could win and build momentum.

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-8 points
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an active genocider running with the policy of continuing it getting 60% of popular vote will be the most shameful thing in our history.

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11 points

Even in your hypothetical, Trump getting ~40% of the popular vote in that scenario is more shameful.

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1 point
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Sending an electoral college message is a decent argument. I’m not persuaded about the house and senate argument though. In my case, I may not vote for Harris, because as somebody from Washington, she’s not gonna lose Washington. But I’m voting for a bunch of downballot Dems because they’re better progressives on a bunch of issues that Harris is not a good on. If it were even within fifteen points in Washington I’d vote for her, but I don’t want to vote for genocide if I don’t have to.

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5 points

It helps I don’t see it as a pro-genecide vote, I guess. It sucks you can’t that pride in casting a vote for someone who seems like a genuinely good candidate on many other issues. Not that the situation in Gaza isn’t genecide, but that it’s probably not as easy as people think to wane ourselves off Israeli support. After all, Harris is clearly very calculated and rational in her stances and it’s clearly better calculus to disavow Israel unless there’s something we don’t know. I trust her to try and make the choice that leads to less death.

If I had to guess, Iran probably scares those in the know and Israel is being used as a counter measure. Recent escalation suggests as much. After Iraq, we don’t exactly have a lot of support in the region and after Trump tanked our deals with Iran, they probably have nukes by now or are damn near close. But that’s just a guess.

Of course, I’m not trying to sway you, an inconsequential voter. Just, it seems unfair to assume anyone supporting Harris is somehow pro-genecide. Hell, my number one issue is education and that’s not even on the board!

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4 points

There he is

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4 points

If it’s meaningless, it’s meaningless either way.

The important fact here is that strongholds can, in fact, fall. Especially when people stop guarding it because it never fell.

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66 points

I’ve had people telling me that I have “blood on [my] hands” because I’m voting for Harris. It’s insane. These people have no fucking concept.

If Harris wins, it will be by razor-thin margin. If she loses, trump wins. If trump wins, the genocide will get cranked up to 11. So voting 3rd party means even MORE “blood on my hands” than a Harris vote.

At least with Harris, there’s a CHANCE she can be reasoned with and stop the bloodshed.

These “Harris = genocide” people are liars, just trying to get trump elected - to sabotage this country.

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There is a world where abstaining could be a reasonable approach. That world probably disappeared before I was born.

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15 points

Even if that 1 to 10 scale was in magnitudes (10^n), 11 would still be an understatement for what Donald Dump would encourage Israel and Russia to do.

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36 points

I cringe every time I see this come up.

Because it isn’t what you actually mean, and the horrible logic of it makes it easy for the Lemmy Lefties to dunk on.

Of course a 3rd party vote isn’t a vote for Trump any more than it is a vote for Kamala.

What it actually is is a discarded opportunity to vote against Trump. Which is also dispicable, but actually accurate.

Everyone knows that’s what you mean by this, but the Lemmy Lefties will play dumb and latch onto that logical fallacy every time.

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-5 points

Not everyone lives in a swing state where votes actually matter.

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11 points
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Do you know what will definitely NOT help get rid of the electoral college? People wasting their votes on 3rd party spoilers

Do you know what would MORE LIKELY move people to demand the elimination of the electoral college? Harris getting 10 million+ more votes, and Trump either winning the electoral college or attempting a coup based on lies because a swing state was close.

The more votes Harris gets, the clearer the will of the people, the harder it is to pretend there was voter fraud.

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-5 points

What a bold and bizarre claim to think there is any winning margin that would repel suspicions.

If Harris wants liberal votes, why is she courting Republicans?

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1 point

“You have to vote for a candidate that refuses to represent you so that people who don’t care about the will of the people will think that you support that candidate.” is a new one.

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1 point
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-1 points

You sure seem to have every excuse in the book, don’t you?

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4 points

Thank goodness not enough people in “safe” states think that way.

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-10 points

They use the same logic of people in swing states??

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-5 points

No one is buying the bullshit you have for sale.

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4 points

I must have missed that footnote in their rhetoric.

Come on, guy.

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-3 points
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Check my history. Vote third party if you don’t live in a swing state is literally what I have been saying.

Ex https://lemmy.ml/post/21262971, https://lemmy.ml/comment/14519387

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-9 points

By definition, most people do not live in swing states.

Disclaimers and footnotes are irrelevant.

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3 points

I’m not your guy, buddy!

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3 points

I think we have the best chance to break the third party at the local level.

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-28 points

The Dems are running on Trump’s 2020 platform. Build the wall. Lock up immigrants. Both parties are far-right shitholes, and it’s time people started realizing that.

The Dems in 2028 will be calling for mass deportations.

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13 points

^ This right here. Exactly my point. They are going to keep telling you Kamala and Trump are the same so you spoil your chance to prevent Trump from taking office again.

They are not subtle, and they do not care about the fallout of a Trump reelection. They are privileged enough that it won’t affect them or their loved ones. It’s despicable.

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-5 points
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5 points

This went so far past just being wrong that it might just end up creating an entirely new paradigm of stupidity.

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6 points

Cringe

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27 points

It’s the trolley problem again. This time, you have 3 tracks and 2 switches. The trolley is headed towards 5 people, one switch sends it to 1 person, and the other switch would send it to 0 people, but it’s broken. Voting third party is pulling the broken switch, knowing the 5 people will die but you’ve shifted the responsibility from yourself to whoever was supposed to fix the switch.

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-14 points

Why do neoliberals bring up the trolley problem as if it is some settled debate among scholars that there is one clear possible answer?

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1 point
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The trolley problem isn’t “settled debate” for the same reasons that Kamala vs Trump isn’t “settled debate”.

The point of the trolley problem and why it’s analogous is that it’s coming up fast and you must choose to either pull that lever or not. Whichever choice you make, that’s the moral character you’ve chosen to exhibit.

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2 points
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Edit: I think my point was too subtle. What I meant was that it seems like lefties will bicker and infight rather than focusing on the bigger enemy first, until that enemy manages to seize power and it’s too late. We’ll be “united” in that we’ll be executed together.


Sometimes, I wonder if a Trump victory would be the only way to get the various leftist factions to stop arguing and stand together, side by side, united in the fact that fascists don’t care what flavour of ideological opposition they’re executing.

Who gives a shit about whether the Trolley Problem is settled - it’s about your answer: Which option do you endorse?

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25 points

I’m not a neoliberal, I’m a socialist. I’m just not an idiot who will give a fascist free rein just because his opponent has the same shitty foreign policy as every politician in the whole fucking country has. There is a difference between the status-quo level of bad and catastrophic.

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2 points
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I like your analogy. Let me expand.

This same situation happens every day. For years now, 1 person has died every day. Nobody pulls the broken lever, but if people started pulling it, it would start working. For the first couple days or weeks, 5 people would die each time, but eventually we would be able to get the train on a safe track.

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6 points

The whole post is an example of a propaganda technique where you keep repeating one thing over and over until it becomes a default thing where people don’t even question the logic.

The ones capable of refuting it feel tired because of the sheer number of posts while the vulnerable ones get affected.

Today both sides “feel” that the use of this propaganda is fair game cuz the other side is already doing it.

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2 points

Excellent analogy. If anyone still plays dumb after reading this, they probably are

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0 points

I really like your take on this. So how is the switch going to get fixed, when the only time anyone pays attention to the fact that it’s broken, is when lives are on the line?

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2 points

If nobody votes 3rd party then we’ll never have a 3rd party candidate that matters.

It’s like bicycle infrastructure. Nobody wants to ride bikes on a highway, but you won’t see bike riders until there’s a trail somewhere for them to ride on. You can say it never matters and that there aren’t any cyclists out there, but you’re wrong. I think there’s a lot of Americans looking for another party right now.

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3 points

Under FPTP, we’ll never have a 3rd party candidate that matters.

The 2-party system is a direct, mathematical result of FPTP + time.

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8 points

They loved Bernie and praised him to the skies.

Then he endorsed Biden and Harris.

Now he’s a ‘sheepdog’ that rounds up people to be slaughtered.

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1 point
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That’s a new one, what are you referring to by him being a sheepdog?

Edit: Funny people on here and reddit just downvote people instead of replying when they post incorrect information and get asked about it

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3 points

I saw “sheepdog” for the first time yesterday. As I stated in my first comment, I take it to mean that he’s rounding up sheep to be slaughtered.

To me, expecting any candidate to be perfect is silly.

I like NYC Mayor Ed Koch’s line. “If you agree with me 51% of the time, vote for me. If you agree with me 100% of the time, see a psychiatrist.”

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