50 points

Hopefully now a better future for Palestinians and Israelis is ahead.

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68 points

I’m not sure the Palestinians will view being ethnically cleansed slightly less vigorously as a brighter future.

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26 points

Who said anything about doing it slightly less? I haven’t heard that from the Israelis.

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14 points

He was the mastermind behind the Oct. 7th attack. The world is a better place without him.

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33 points

Nobody’s arguing that. His death being good and the continued eradication of the Palestinian people by the IDF and Israeli state can coexist.

To be perfectly clear, since this is the internet and people can’t seem to have two concepts in their minds at once: The genocide of the Palestinian people needs to stop.

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12 points

Yes, but the masterminds behind levelling Gaza are still at large.

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6 points

Bold assumption to claim it will get less intense.

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5 points

I am probably out of the loop but how does one go about Identifying a Palestinian without shooting everyone?

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16 points

Point your Tavor at them. If they run, they’re Hamas. If they don’t, they’re well-disciplined Hamas.

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1 point

I think IDF also uses option B - explosives. Also very effective, since the only ones who get harmed by IDF weapons are Hamas, so everyone killed/harmed in the blast zone can safely be declared Hamas.

/s

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-4 points

Palestinians have never been ethnically cleansed. There are also peaceful Palestinians that don’t want, and do want a brighter future.

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3 points

Ethnic Cleansing has always been a cornerstone of Zionism.

Origins of Zionism

Zionism is a settler colonialism project that was able to really start with the support of British Imperialism. Zionism as a political movement started with Theodore Herzl in the 1880s as a ‘modern’ way to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ of Europe.

Since at least the 1860’s, Europe was increasingly antisemitic and hostile to Jewish people. Zionism was explicitly a Setter Colonialist movement and the native Palestinians were not considered People but Savages by the Europeans. While Zionist Colonization began before it, the Balfor Declaration is when Britain gave it’s backing of the movement in order to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ while also creating a Colony in the newly conquered Middle East after WWI in order to exhibit military force in the region and extract natural resources.

That’s when Zionist immigration started to pick up, out of necessity for most as Europe became more hostile and antisemitic. That continued into and during WWII, European countries and even the US refused to expand immigration quotas for Jewish people seeking asylum. The idea that the creation of Israel is a reparation for Jewish people is an after-the-fact justification. While most Jewish immigrants had no choice and just wanted a place to live in peace, it was the Zionist Leadership that developed and implemented the forced transfer, ethnic cleansing, of the native population, Palestinians. Without any Occupation, Apartheid, and ethnic cleansing, there would not be any Palestinian resistance to it.

Herzl himself explicitly considered Zionism a Settler Colonialist project, Setter Colonialism is always violent. The difficulty in creating a democratic Jewish state in an area inhabited by people who are not Jewish, is that enough Palestinian people need to be ‘Transferred’ to have a demographic majority that is Jewish. Ben-Gurion explicitly rejected Secular Bi-national state solutions in favor of partition.

Quote

Zionism’s aims in Palestine, its deeply-held conviction that the Land of Israel belonged exclusively to the Jewish people as a whole, and the idea of Palestine’s “civilizational barrenness" or “emptiness” against the background of European imperialist ideologies all converged in the logical conclusion that the native population should make way for thenewcomers.

The idea that the Palestinian Arabs must find a place for themselves elsewhere was articulated early on. Indeed, the founder of the movement, Theodor Herzl, provided an early reference to transfer even before he formally outlined his theory of Zionist rebirth in his Judenstat.

An 1895 entry in his diary provides in embryonic form many of the elements that were to be demonstrated repeatedly in the Zionist quest for solutions to the “Arab problem ”-the idea of dealing with state governments over the heads of the indigenous population, Jewish acquisition of property that would be inalienable, “Hebrew Land" and “Hebrew Labor,” and the removal of the native population.

Settlements, Occupation, and Apartheid

Israel justifies the settlements and military bases in the West Bank in the name of Security. However, the reality of the settlements on-the-ground has been the cause of violent resistance and a significant obstacle to peace, as it has been for decades.

This type of settlement, where the native population gets ‘Transferred’ to make room for the settlers, is a long standing practice.

The mass ethnic cleansing campaign of 1948:

Further, declassified Israeli documents show that the Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip were deliberately planned before being executed in 1967:

While the peace process was exploited to continue de-facto annexation of the West Bank via Settlements

The settlements are maintained through a violent apartheid that routinely employs violence towards Palestinians and denies human rights like water access, civil rights, etc. This kind of control gives rise to violent resistance to the Apartheid occupation, jeopardizing the safety of Israeli civilians.

The apartheid regime is based on organized, systemic violence against Palestinians, which is carried out by numerous agents: the government, the military, the Civil Administration, the Supreme Court, the Israel Police, the Israel Security Agency, the Israel Prison Service, the Israel Nature and Parks Authority, and others. Settlers are another item on this list, and the state incorporates their violence into its own official acts of violence. Settler violence sometimes precedes instances of official violence by Israeli authorities, and at other times is incorporated into them. Like state violence, settler violence is organized, institutionalized, well-equipped and implemented in order to achieve a defined strategic goal.

Apartheid Evidence

Amnesty Report

Human Rights Watch Report

B’TSelem Report with quick Explainer

Visualizing the Ethnic Cleansing

Peace Process and Solution

Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution

How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution

‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe

One State Solution, Foreign Affairs

Historian Works on the History
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-8 points

Gaza Strip wasn’t a very joyful time even before the war. It was ruled by extremist religious terrorists that would literally torture, rape and kill you for whatever reason (like being gay).

People somehow conveniently ignore this.

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9 points

You conviently ignore that Gaza has been under Israeli occupation and siege since well before Hamas rose to power.

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2 points
*

I think you mean Israel, who does torture, rape, and kill Palestinians (including children) for whatever reason. Pinkwashing the Apartheid doesn’t justify it.

Palestinian Prisoners in Israeli Prisons

Palestinians are jailed without charge, forced into false confessions, routinely tortured, raped, denied medical attention, and some killed as a result. This includes hundreds of children.

Palestinians denied civil rights (HRW) including Military Court (B’TSelem)

Palestinian Prisoners in Israel (wiki)

Children are jailed and abused in Israeli prisons (Save The Children)

Torture and Abuse in Interrogations (B’TSelem)

Thousands of Palestinians are held without charge under Israeli detention policy (NPR)

Urgently investigate inhumane treatment and enforced disappearance of Palestinians detainees from Gaza (Amnesty)

Israel/OPT: Horrifying cases of torture and degrading treatment of Palestinian detainees amid spike in arbitrary arrests (Amnesty)

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0 points

Indeed, one of them is the Islamic Jihad. I hope the Palestinians will have a positive government.

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43 points

Not while Netanyahu remains in power, he has no incentive to end this.

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4 points

Neither does Israel in general, nor the US backing them.

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2 points

Netanyahu is indeed a problematic figure who take these situations into his advantage, maybe another would be better to make peace.

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3 points

It’s the only way. The problem is that if he called an election tomorrow he would stand a good chance of winning it.

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31 points

How optimistic.

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30 points
*

Hamas was created as a reaction to Israel oppressing Palestinians.

The resistance will continue until the oppressors stop oppressing them.

Sinwar was not a charismatic guy who brainwashed everyone into attacking Israel. Israel oppressed Palestinians into violent resistance.

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8 points

100%, everyone thinking Palestinians were duped by Sinwar into striking back at Israel has no knowledge of the history of Israel as a Settler-Colonial project.

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-5 points

Fun fact, practically “Palestinian” consists of a diverse population of Arabs (i.e. Bedouin and Muslims), Jews, and Christians and more. So which do you refer to as “Palestinians”?

Sinwar was not a charismatic guy who brainwashed everyone into attacking Israel.

He WAS a charismatic killer who brainwashed into attacking Israel.

According tohttps://www.un.org/unispal/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/AHRC47NGO145_150621.pdf “United Nations Watch is concerned that the Palestinian education system continues to promote antisemitism and incite terrorism, including in schools of the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA).”

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3 points

Fun fact nothing you said is true.

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26 points

As an Irish person, you can’t end terrorism with violence. You just create martyrs to a cause, a cause which looks more and more legitimate the more civilians suffer and die because of said violence. “Kill the rebels” every 20 years did nothing for peace on Ireland for 800 years.

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2 points

What’s the antidote for that then?

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17 points

Stop making violence the only thing you’ll react to in any way? Or indeed, stop responding to peaceful resistance with violence (eg the civil rights marches in Northern Ireland).

It might seem like Palestine has been a hopeless mire forever, but there was a point in the 90s where the last reasonable leaders of both sides were coming together for a peaceful solution. Hamas and the Israeli right wing - the “both sides” of today - were on the fringe.

Then Yitzhak Rabin was killed by an Israeli right-winger, Israel inexplicably responded by killing a Hamas leader, Arab civilians were massacred at the Cave of Patriarchs by an American Israeli, and Hamas responded with more bombings, Yassar Arafat died under siege by the IDF, Hamas took control of Gaza, and well, here we are.

The assassination of Yitzhak Rabin is probably as impactful to history of that of Archduke Ferdinand, but seems to be being forgotten.

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8 points
*

At this point the Israelis have made the two state solution impossible because of their settling of the best lands of the West Bank in such a way that makes a contiguous truly independent Palestinian state impossible.

So the only way forward is Democracy with safety and equal rights for all, Jews, Muslims, Christians, and others from the river to the sea.

The Israeli right of the last 30 years has basically made it a choice between genocide and apartheid and the end of Zionism as we know it.

So there.

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3 points

Help - provide food, housing, education. Stop dehumanizing people. Help them build a peaceful future. Everyone will benefit from that.

But that would require actual good will.

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1 point

They’ll keep doing it so that they can have an out group to blame for people’s problems.

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-9 points

This sound like survivorship bias. We got rid of plenty of terrorists with violence you just don’t know about them because they’re gone

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10 points

Well yes, the only way to erase a nation or culture’s hatred of your violence is with enough violence to literally genocide them.

But there really aren’t that many. You just put it down for a generation until it comes back, usually with a different name.

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-9 points

Israel has been supporting Palestinians such ash letting them work within Israel. But that didn’t help unfortunately. The best solution is education. The hard truth is what they are being educated with: to terror and destruction or to peace and prosperity.

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7 points

Saying that letting Palestinians work in their own ancestral land as precarious labour is “Israel supporting Palestinians”, is like saying that Apartheid South Africa was such a supportive institution for letting the blacks in Soweto work outside the fucking Bantustan.

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14 points
*

Not really likely. With all these kids and the younger generation terrorised/traumatized by Israel, hopes for a lasting peace is dim. Imagine your home and loved ones being torn into pieces right in front of your eyes by Israel all because of a terrorist attack that you played no part in. Now multiply this by tens of thousands…They will go on to be members or leaders of whatever terrorist/resistance organization follows hamas. It’s an endless cycle where only people on the very top take advantage off.

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-1 points

This is a sad truth, and it can only be solved with education. Both states are traumatized. It’s time to come together.

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3 points

Both states are traumatized. It’s time to come together.

Give me a fucking break. One state is subsidized by American taxpayers, receiving about $5 billion per year ($18 billion this year alone) from the US to rain terror on the other, steal their land, and exterminate them over the course of almost a century.

We hanged Nazis at Nuremberg for the same thing Isrealis have been doing. Collaborators were rounded up and shot. There is no coming together after (or during) a genocide.

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12 points
*

the future that you speaking of called “west bank” where “Israeli occupier” put bounty on “indigenous Palestinian” homes for burning their cars or destroying their properties. Where the “Israeli occupier” open carry guns threatening or shooting “indigenous Palestinian” and if the “indigenous Palestinian” fight back in any form “since they don’t have guns” they get into a military court, then prison, maybe without a charge, then get raped in prison, based on “Israeli sources”

Pretending this not a case of apartheid genocidal military force is stupid considering the overwhelming evidence that you can find reading a few news article or maybe 5 minutes in Wikipedia.

If you are bored maybe you can watch this episode of Anthony Bourdain “Palestine parts unknown” aired in 2013 and ask yourself if that the past and the current living condition what makes believe this will help in anyway!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_bVSRlaIjw

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-2 points

Fun fact, practically “indigenous Palestinian” consists of a diverse population of Arabs (i.e. Bedouin and Muslims), Jews, and Christians, Bedouin and more. So which do you refer to as “indigenous Palestinian”?

“Israeli occupier” is a pure propaganda. Israel received an official support for by the UN for setting up a state. Whoever was against it it’s his own problem. Israel has the right to be an independent heterogeneous multicultural and multi-religion state.

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2 points

Are you just completely ignoring the events of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War?

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2 points

Israel received an official support for by the UN for setting up a state.

And that was how many years ago, like 75? The UN and the ICC declared Isreal guilty of extermination, among other crimes against humanity, just this year. It’s messed up it took them this long to do it.

So which do you refer to as “indigenous Palestinian”?

Spoken like a holocaust denier being intentionally thick.

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-3 points

Sounds like 'Merica!

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10 points

Good joke. Everybody laugh. Roll on snare drum. Curtains.

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-1 points

Nope, no joke.

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1 point

Just because you’re not in on the joke doesn’t mean it’s not a joke

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8 points

Probably not the tens of thousands of murdered Palestinians. Homeless, without any future.

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0 points

It’s possible. See the numerous states that went through hard times and strive eventually. When you believe it, it’s possible.

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7 points
*

Nope, it will only intensify. Yahya Sinwar wasn’t some evil mastermind manipulating and controlling the Palestinian people, they have been fighting an existential war against a genocidal entity that has been exterminating them for nearly a century. You can’t get a ceasefire by killing someone beloved by the Palestinian people.

You can hate Sinwar if you want and celebrate if you wish, but the Palestinian people are not celebrating right now, they are mourning. Historically, deaths of Hamas leaders have only hurt ceasefire talks.

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-4 points

Comments like these are just supporting these kinds of heinous figures like him, and it’s just sad, and evil.

Yahya Sinwar wasn’t some evil mastermind manipulating and controlling the Palestinian people This is a pure lie.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahya_Sinwar: “Sinwar planned the abduction and killing of two Israeli soldiers and the murder of four Palestinians whom he suspected of cooperating with Israel.” “Sinwar was believed to have overseen the torture and execution.” And this is just part of the list.

they have been fighting an existential war against a genocidal There no genocide. Lie #2. This is not Israel’s goal in this war. Or ever.

beloved by the Palestinian people. Lie #3.

Stop posting lies.

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11 points
*

I wasn’t making a moral judgement of Sinwar, but contextualizing the Palestinian view of him. Palestinians sided with Hamas and Sinwar because of Israel’s genocide against Palestine, Sinwar wasn’t some great and powerful manipulator able to trick an entire population. Again, I am not making a moral justification for Sinwar, I am explaining why this isn’t leading to a ceasefire.

Secondly, are you denying that Israel is committing genocide?

Third, Sinwar absolutely has positive views among Palestinians. The majority of Palestinians support fighting Israel, and the footage of him perishing on the front lines, in full combat garb, defiantly throwing scrap metal at the drone confirming his soon to be death, has fully disproven the idea that he was a coward hiding in a bunker this whole time. He is more popular now than ever before.

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10 points

Don’t be daft, he’s explaining, not justifying.

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2 points

I don’t disagree with you but you posted Wikipedia as your source and thats just cringe. At least use the source that Wikipedia cited, please.

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Edit: I apologize for my cynicism, but I struggle to be hopeful about the prospects of Israel making peace with its surroundings nations and occupied territories.

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24 points
*

“We finally caught him, now once all those pesky civilians are starved, we can start to heal.”

Beginning of the end? jfc

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21 points

“killed in surprise encounter” Makes it sound like he walked around a corner, saw them, and had a heart attack.

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14 points

I think that’s because the attack wasn’t for him.

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12 points

“WTF? These aren’t civilians!”

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-3 points
*

Civilians are not allowed in war zone, so they couldn’t be civilians. But because Hamas militants dequise as civilians, without considering the consequences on the surrounding civilians, indeed it’s challenging to detect.

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6 points

The Final Fantasy random encounter sting played and bam!

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1 point

"Why did my glasses shatte…

OH SHIT! DID ANYBODY SPEC ESUNA?!

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8 points

fuck netanyahu and fuck hamas

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5 points

If Netanyahu says it is ending soon then that is something I can appreciate, perhaps the pressure of a US withdrawal of support coupled with pending war with Lebanon will force Netanyahu into a moderate position in order to keep power.

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