i’m sure everyone can be normal about this post yes?
transcript:
a tumblr post:
autistichalsin posts:
Some of you are literally watching the right wing continuously try to expand the definition of “pedophilia” to include “existing around a child while queer,” and then agreeing with them when they say pedophiles deserve to be summarily executed.
Not only does this place innocent people in danger of political executions, it also puts children in danger, as most children who are sexually abused have this done by someone close to them, and feelings that they would be responsible for the death of their abuser if they reported leads to lower rates of reporting. It also leads to higher rates of abusers murdering their victims when they’re found out because the punishment will be the same anyway.
Part of being on the left is realizing that it’s better to let 100 guilty men go free than to wrongly convict one. Another part of being on the left is realizing that one’s life is never something others have the right to take away- even the most evil people alive. Yes, that includes mass murderers and rapists and pedophiles. Once you make one group acceptable to kill, you give others a vested interest in defining groups they have prejudice against into that group.
You have to start dealing with the fact that no crime makes one’s life forfeit. Not even the worst most depraved and sadistic acts. The worst people alive have rights, and if you can’t accept that they deserve them, at least try to accept that it is to your benefit that they retain rights no matter what they’re accused of. And if you can’t do even that, well… you just might be the kind of person who would cut off your nose to spite your face.
If you want to protect victims, if you want to protect minority groups, you have to realize that sex crimes, or any crimes at all, do not deserve the death penalty. Period.
brettdoesdiscourse replies:
When a certain kind of person “deserves” to die, bigots will make sure marginalized groups all are that kind of person.
little-gay-dowitcher replies:
My former neighbors were the “kill all pedos” type. They were also incredibly transphobic. And I was visibly queer. So guess who got stalked, harassed and threatened all throughout the brief period of time they babysat for their friend?
Stop enabling fascists. They’ve already proven they’re willing to attack minorities for no reason. Don’t give them a chance to excuse it.
You have to start dealing with the fact that no crime makes one’s life forfeit
What about fascists? Shouldn’t their lives be forfeit? :3
The death penalty should be reserved for people who absolutely will continue to commit great crimes (e.g. murder) even after they’re imprisoned. Example: A crime boss that issues orders to have people murdered via visits from their lawyer.
Someone like that–even from within prison–has too much of a negative impact on society to be allowed to live. You can’t take away their basic rights (like the right to a lawyer) so the most humane thing to do would be to end them as peacefully as possible. Otherwise you’re going to allow them to continue committing crimes, racking up victims, and degrading society as a whole.
A convicted pedophile rapist will be incapable of committing that same sort of crime as long as they are imprisoned. Hence it’s not necessary to execute them.
Who decides which “fascists” deserve to die in this scenario? Are you specifically targeting actual self proclaimed fascist world leaders, or just anyone you disagree with who you feel “seems like a fascist”?
For your scenario to work you would have to elect someone who could dictate who deserves to die. That would be giving this “dictator” full unquestioned power over life and death… You see how quickly this all falls apart right?
I meant this somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Like you say, there is no valid scenario in which someone/a government could cast judgement on who is/isn’t a fascist. However those on the far-right who insist on eroding democracy are blind to reason and are beyond saving. Say a civil war were to arise, those who self-align themselves with the fascists I believe would then be fair game for destruction.
Disagree, lots of stuff can void your right to life. The issue with killing people, even those who deserve it, is that Innocents can be caught up in that.
The broad argument fails, for the same reason as ‘banning Nazis makes you as bad as the Nazis.’
Bad faith only works because it resembles good faith. It’s an irrational abuse of a decent argument. That abuse does not disprove the argument. If we avoid things just because some asshole can abuse them, we are paralyzed, because there is absolutely nothing that assholes cannot abuse.
Maximizing everyone’s freedom and dignity means having some restrictions.
Maximizing who survives means some violent bastards get got.
I don’t think the argument does fail. OP is not arguing against killing in the heat of the moment in self-defence or whatever. OP is arguing specifically about executions after the fact. The only way “maximizing who survives” would be relevant is if you believe capital punishment is a deterrent, and that is arguable.
Vigilante violence is the initial example. The death penalty, as a state function, only comes up incidentally.
The broad argument is what’s echoed in the replies: ‘we can’t do [blank] for good reasons, because what if they do it for bad reasons.’ As if doing anything to fascists, which fascists want done to all non-fascists, is double-reverse-secretly “enabling fascists.” But even those replies point out - they’re already fucking doing it. “They’re willing to attack minorities for no reason.”
Fascists will always MAKE an excuse. Usually, whichever one seems popular, especially the ones about stopping them in particular. They’ll pick two opposite excuses in the same sentence. Their shameless lying doesn’t disprove the rhetoric they stole. This is as true when it’s accusations of making shit up, as when it’s suggestions of bringing a brick to a rally.
Fascists will always MAKE an excuse.
Obviously. But whether or not leftists support killing people who have done the thing the fascists accuse the minorities of doing/being is whether or not the fascists will be able to kill those minoritites with leftists cheering them on.
Once you make one group acceptable to kill, you give others a vested interest in defining groups they have prejudice against into that group.
So… they’re going to make us all billionaires?
I agree with a lot of points the post is making, but there is also one group in particular, that isn’t only responsible for turning society against each other, literally dragging us back in to fascism, but is waaaaay above the law and would always remain that way until the system that put that law in place and enforces it is abolished, which is a complete impossibility without using force.
Do I think all billionaires should die? Not necessarily, but I do think they should cease to exist as billionaires.
Do I think any billionaire would, at first, just give up their money and power and just agree to be like the rest of us? Not a fucking chance.
So yeah, while prison isn’t a real threat to them, and they have all the power, and adamant refusal to give it up, I see them as a group it is acceptable to kill, because they see us all as acceptable to kill (and they actively are).
You simply can’t compare a random citizen, however harmful to the people around them, to the handful of people who literally control the entire world economy, and all of the abuse and destruction it brings with it, killing millions annually (via artificial scarcity and other methods of deliberately depriving people access to food, water, shelter, and medicine for preventable disease, not to mention other exploitation like slavery or starvation wages, child labour, as well as the patriarchy, queerphobia, and so on which encourage gendered violence and the kind of murder OP is talking about).
Part of being on the left is considering systemic power structures, and understanding that they can not be addressed in the same way an individual offender is.
And for the record: I don’t believe in the death penalty and I don’t think paedophiles, rapists, and murderers should be executed, because as opposed to billionaires, they can be removed from society in different ways, because they don’t own it.
How did that go for the objectively non-bourgeoisie who got caught up in Stalin’s / Lenin’s / Mao’s anti-bourgeois campaigns?
Even Mao acknowledged innocent people got executed during his “counter-revolutionary” and land reform campaigns. And the number of prisoners Kruschev released from the Gulags would have been impossible if most of them were actually as harmful to Russia as they were accused of being.
Once the guillotines come out, everyone is calling everyone else bourgeois.
I gave a very narrow group, feel free to create your slippery slope strawman elsewhere.
You guys have an opportunity for good, honest discussion if you can both avoid behaviors like seeking refuge by invoking logical fallacies as if they’re eldritch wards of protection and viewing conversations that take place between parties who disagree as contests that must be won.
we have people right now accusing anyone with a middle class income of being who they’re talking about when they say eat the rich. who genuinely believe that the fact that poverty exists means that anyone who isn’t in it is the borgeoise. you’re an idiot if you think those people won’t come out of the woodwork when people actually start killing billionaires.
I find the replies to you funny because we know exactly who you’re talking about, there’s 3,194 of them worldwide.
Exactly.
People not being able to tell the difference between tankie rhetoric (“put all of the bourgeoisie up against the wall and everyone I disagree with in the gulag!!12”) or even plain old anti-communist propaganda, and actual leftist views is for them to figure out with themselves. I said what I said, and I mean it as I said it (including saying that I don’t even think it’s necessary to kill all billionaires, never mind anyone bellow them, which they conveniently ignore).
Cmon being leftist doesn’t mean you open yourself up to abuse and manipulation at the hands of socios or psychos. There shouldn’t be sympathy or empathy for anyone who deliberately hurts other people. Can we rehabilitate them or punish them, yes. Should we “let 100 guilty go free” or some bs, hell no. Be real, this is how nice people end up getting fucked over by cult leaders
