You cannot use a nation state to fix problems with the nation state. Marxism in general has real “the free market will regulate itself” vibes.
Marxism doesn’t call on the state to do that. That’s leninism. Marxism is highly unobjectionable. The problem is how we get there. Marx himself spoke of an evolution over a long period of time in Society to arrive there. However humans desire immediate gratification. And thus that was unsatisfactory for most people. Which is where Engles, Lenin and others enter the picture. Who thought they could jump start communism/marxism using the very thing that kept communism/Marxism from being possible. The state.
I suppose the question is how do you go from state to no state in one fell swoop?
A functional stateless society would be a generational undertaking not an overnight revolution, anarchists who believe otherwise are in the above picture.
I mean that sounds just like, Marxism-Leninism withering of the state kinda line really so that’s what I get confused on unless you’re saying that MLs are fundamentally anarchists in that they strive for a stateless society (eventually)
That’s the first question, the second question is where do you bury all the damn bodies?
The third question is: “Oh shit, did we just kill all the farmers? Anybody know how to grow food?”
This is the point you really hope you’re not ukrainian. Or, just, any Asians really.
This is kind of tangential, but I wish people would make distinction between Marxism and Leninism. Marx didn’t say shit about the vanguard party. Imo, we can reject Leninism without having to reject Marxism.
Also don’t waste your time arguing with me, because I am woefully uneducated and stupid, but I can only work with what I have, ya know?
But he did write quite extensively on Lumpenproletariat.
vagabonds, discharged soldiers, discharged convicts, runaway galley slaves, swindlers, charlatans, pickpockets, tricksters, gamblers, procurers, brothel keepers, porters, intellectuals, organ grinders, rag-pickers, knife-grinders, tinkers, beggars; in short, the entirely undefined, disintegrating mass, thrown hither and yon, which the French call la bohème.
That is quite a few groups he considered subhuman, where half the ‘cleansing’ operations under communism have derived their theoretical excuses from.
The point of the Lumpenproletariat isn’t that they’re subhuman, it’s that they lack cohesiveness as a class or revolutionary potential.
Well - here’s the thing with “lacking revolutionary potential” and a dear-leader mindset… anyone dear leader deems lacking is labeled lumpen and thrown to the furthest gulag or has their rights removed and confined.
Eg in Stalinist Russia certain groups like the Roma, Crimean Tatars, Chechens, Koreans or homosexuals were labeled as such wholesale.
In modern times the Uighurs need reeducation etc.
I don’t think many people on lemmy conflate marxism with leninism outside of .ml, and even there folks seems to see leninism as something on top of marxism and not inherently mixed.
And then we also have people who feel stalinist style “communo facism” would work well because everyone you like will be fed and everyone you don’t like will be dead. I don’t think anyone ever liked those people, including themselves.
TBF even Leninism is a stark departure from what MLs believe.
If you look at the original plans for the Soviet Union, Lenin was basically planning a Syndicalist Representative-Democracy. Problem was that Lenin got too bogged down in crushing any chance that said democracy would vote against itself, and then Stalin just decided to go full corporate town with it.
I accidentally wandered into a lemmy.ml bit recently and said ML can be rejected just on the basis of consistently devolving into cults. The reply came back of “why do you not like Marxism?” as of that’s what I said.
Oh, and they removed that comment and banned me, but that’s just as well.
It’s the mechanical gaps in Marxist philosophy which arguably led to Leninist revisionism in that first era.
The annoying part is that there is now like 100 year of post-Lenin philosophy which MLs love to ignore because the thing they actually care about is relitigating 100 year old geopolitics.
Thats why leftist unity consistently fails, still better then “libertarian” unity
I was explaining what the Libertarian Party wanted to my daughter and she said she didn’t understand why anyone would want a country like that. I told her that virtually no one else does either, which is why Libertarians almost never get elected.
They want a lot of horrible things and a lot of good things. Obviously the capitalist parts are disgusting but at least they dont support genocide (which sadly in this year is extremely rare).
They support a genocide of the poor. One that involves letting them starve to death due to the total lack of social services.
Replace tankies with religious fundamentalists (muslims/christian) it would be the same thing
I remember back when Hexbear had “no sectarianism” in their rules, but were actively tearing themselves apart internally over whether or not non-Vegans were “real leftists”.
You don’t ever have to worry about Tankies actually organizing. People like that don’t know how anything works well enough for that.
