Cross-posted from: https://feddit.de/post/10013170
The war in Ukraine is “existential for our Europe and for France”, Mr Macron said in the interview on France 2 and TF1.
“Do you think that the Poles, the Lithuanians, the Estonians, the Romanians and the Bulgarians could remain at peace for a second [in the event of a Russian victory in Ukraine]?” he asked. “If Russia wins this war, Europe’s credibility would be reduced to zero.”
As if Europe or the „Western“ world in general would still have any credibility with the Gaza genocide.
I truly feel sorry for Ukrainians as the support for the resistance was never about actual solidarity or values.
You realize that there’s a genocide happening in Ukraine too that is much more intentional than Gaza right? I’ve read Putin’s papers on Ukrainian identity, or rather lack thereof. The Russians are abducting all of the Ukrainian children and turning them into Russians by forcing them to speak Russian and indoctrinating them. They have stripped the occupied territory of young Ukrainian men to kill off families there.
I guess that because we’re slow to provide aid to Gaza, we’re supposed to ignore the Ukrainian genocide and European security threat that is Russia.
Good news is that we’re now dropping food aid and the Americans are putting floating docks there to deliver aid. Maybe next time the Gazan militias will distribute the food aid for free instead of selling it to the people.
I’m not sure if you understand the politics of Gaza, Israel, Hamas, the PNA, Egypt or Iran. You have to understand all of the players before you can make a good opinion. You also have to understand what is and isn’t a war crime. And what exactly Genocide is.
Go read UN reports and their definitions of war crimes. Learn to recognize deception in war footage. Read about the politics of each faction. And maybe then, you can have a decent opinion
I find it very strange to tell someone you know nothing about that they have no clue what they’re talking about simply because they disagree with you.
The mental gymnastics you’re doing to assert that the situation in Ukraine and Gaza would be different is either driven by racism (which I don’t want to accuse you of) or ignorance out of a geopolitical interest.
First of all, intention is central to the legal definition of genocide. You cannot accidentally commit genocide. Both Russia and Israel are very open about their intentions and it’s clear that they want to eradicate the Ukrainians/Palestinians as a people and claim the land for themselves.
The only difference is that we’re arming the victim in the case of Ukraine and the perpetrators in the case of Israel. If you’re interested in UN reports then feel free to read their assessments on the war crimes, ethnic cleansings, Apartheid, illegal occupation, indefinite mass imprisonments without charge, torture, sexual abuse during said imprisonment, and most recently on the genocide. Feel free to also read the ICJ case by South Africa.
If your empathy extends only to some people it’s up to you to figure out why. It only proves my point that Europe has no credibility to begin with. Our support for Ukraine is purely driven by our own interest to fight back against Russia. Ukrainians are nothing but a pawn for us, although it’s a convenient narrative that they’re the victims and we’re doing it for a greater cause.
Maybe I’m just salty that this war is going so well for Hamas and Netenyahou both. Nenenyahou gets to satisfy his conservative base by way of ethnic cleansing and Hamas has gathered so much international sympathy that it makes ISIS look like a school fundraiser. Terrorism works, and that was Hamas’ goal at the start.
I know that under the UN statute, many Israeli officials are likely guilty of genocide. The ICC is going to have to decide that like they have for Russia. Netenyahou is chief among them. To excuse Ukranian Genocide by saying that we aren’t doing enough about Gaza is the main thing that I’m angry about.
As a side note, I see the echoes of the Battle of Mosul where ISIS used many of the same tactics to cause as much suffering as possible to the civilian population. Maybe that’s what put me off from Hamas
Unfortunately, we can’t afford to intervene in every genocide that’s happening, whether in Armenia, Myanmar, Xinjiang or Sudan. We are complicit in the genocide of Uighurs for cheap goods. I’m so tired
I have a feeling that it’s mainly about power. Russia having more power will be catastrophic to the world
It’s not like the West is any more humane, we’re just committing all the atrocities far away from ourselves. It’s objectively better for almost anyone to live in a Western country than in the places we oppress. And I wouldn’t want to live in Russia or China either.
I totally agree that Russia shouldn’t have power. But how much does the Western power help middle easterners? Or how much did it help in Korea, Vietnam, …
So it’s fighting Russia’s power isn’t based on a consistent moral framework. It’s just done because our own quality of life is better if Russia has less power.
@bolzolol
As if Europe or the „Western“ world in general would still have any credibility with the Gaza genocide.
I truly feel sorry for Ukrainians as the support for the resistance was never about actual solidarity or values.
Aren’t you getting tired of this?
Ah yeah the typical whataboutism accusation. Whataboutism is certainly a problem when trolls try to derail debates.
In this case though the statement that Europe would lose all credibility if Ukraine loses relies on the premise that there’s any credibility left to begin with. I’m challenging that premise.
It’s blatantly obvious that the support for Ukraine was always just about geopolitics, and never about moral or values. Now, the geopolitical interest seems to have shifted, hence no more support for Ukraine. See e.g. Scholz not even giving any reasons for denying support, except that he says so.
I think all of this is terrible and I want Ukraine to be supported, but our dear Western leaders are morally bankrupt so I’m afraid it may not happen.
We need to start defining what a win and what a loss is. I feel that this could vary on some parts
Honestly it feels like the only reasonable outcome is a division like Korea, and focus on modernising and liberalising West Ukraine.
So… west Ukraine up til Moscow and east Ukraine for the rest?
Edit: apparently we need an /s
That isn’t realistic, and Russia has nuclear weapons too.
The best bet is that the regime will be toppled in Russia with time, just like the USSR was.
It’s better to lead by example with free institutions and free markets - the people of Russia will want freedom too.
How can ukraine even win? Like there is no venue left other than NATO troops… oh…
Credibility is not the only thing Europe is bound to lose if Russia is victorious.
U.S. conservatives are champing at the bit to see Europe fall to Russia. Action needs to happen now, or the U.S. could have a conservative government that backs Putin. That would be the end of Europe.
We need to join Europe right now in a full-scale defense of Ukraine. Otherwise we are allowing Putin to take Europe simply by threat of nuclear action. We need to strike first, disarm the dictator and repel the Russian invasion. And we need to do it now. The clock is ticking.
We need to destroy Russias ability to threaten the EU and remove Putin and any other similar leader from power in Russia. That should be the goal of the EU and not to go into a full scale war with Russia. Seriously Putin is not winning that war. The Russian civilian economy is shrinking fast, Russias war reserves are depleting, oil income is falling, soldiers are being lost on a massive scale with a demogrophics, which does not allow for that, and Russias weapons reserves from Soviet times are falling. Russia has two or three years of full scale war in it. The only thing we need to do is to keep Ukraine in the fight, while destroying as much of Russia as possible.
The one thing Russia has able to successfully ramp up production on is basic artillery shells. Analysts are putting their production numbers at something like 3x what Europe is putting out. It’s starting to become a problem.
And that little spineless shitfuck Johnson is doing precisely what Putin wants in this scenario. There is a direct causal relationship between Johnson + the GOP refusing to give anything to Ukraine for months and Ukraine’s recent strategic difficulties. I sincerely hope Johnson is able to experience the tender mercies of Russian captivity someday.
Nope, Russia is firing three times as many shells as Europe produces in 155mm. However that includes North Korean shells and smaller artillery calibers. The EU also produces some 152mm and 120mm. Even more importantly the shells are much more accurate.
