Final edit: Sorry guys, this got out of hand as I feared and it would take too long to answer everything properly and it would just offend more people.
I got some nice tips for finding places and learned more about Australian’s views on the subject. I should have been more careful with what I said. It changed my opinion somewhat but people here would still not like it, so I’ll keep it to myself.
Thanks for the very civilized and nice answers and I’m sorry if I didn’t answer. I would like to, but in private, or this could become a witch hunt. I do not wish to offend anyone or be attacked because of that. As someone commented, I am the problem here.
Hi everyone, I’ve been lurking for a long time and decided to try to ask something I can’t find out.
First, please be tolerant about the question. I am an Australian citizen, but from a foreign background, so cultural things that seem sacred and unquestionable here are not the same to me. I wouldn’t be crazy to post this on reddit (though I deleted my account ages ago) because I know all the posts would just be attacking me (if you don’t like it, leave, are you defending terrorists?, and so on), instead of helpful comments. Hopefully it will be different here.
The question is: is there any Australian town free from military worship? I mean monuments everywhere, pools and parks named after it and so on. Somewhere I can forget and pretend that this is not how the rest of Australia is.
I’ve been traveling around trying to find a place I would like to settle. I found many small towns I liked, but it seems that the smaller the town, the higher the military worship. They may not even have a public toilet, but they will have a military worship statue that seemed to have cost more than all the town to build.
I love Australia, specially the outback, but the military worship issue is so big that makes me think of looking for another country. I know my taxes are being used to send people to kill whoever the US doesn’t like, and the country prides itself with this history. But if I can ignore that, I can pretend to myself that it’s not true and live happy. I tried to fight the issue for a long time but it makes no difference except to me, sacrificing my well being for nothing. But if I keep being reminded every time I go to do groceries trough the park “invasion of foreign country divine pride park”, it will be impossible. I already try to avoid news and ABC, so it should be possible.
I’m sending a picture of some of the places I’ve been to, without much luck. Funny enough, the town I liked the most, Roma, is the worst, with military trees every 10 meters.
Anyway, that’s it. Maybe I’ll get downvoted to oblivion, but let’s try…
By the way, I don’t know if I am posting this correctly, on the right place and everything. It’s my first lemmy post as well. It’s very confusing to know the community to post. It shows everything everwhere!
Edit- I posted this before, thought it was in the wrong place, deleted and posted again. Now I see 2 of the posts and the deleted one has 2 upvotes. This is so confusing…
Edit2 - Before I get any comment, I dislike military worship from any country, not just Australia. Military may or not be necessary in modern societies, but worship and praise should never be acceptable and is specially dangerous when applied to a group with power. Citizens should always be skeptical of their military group, its uses, powers and permissions. It should be like owning a gun. You may be allowed to have one but should be constantly proving you are not doing anything wrong with it. The definition of what is “wrong” or “right” should be constantly questioned as well.
Edit3 - just a reminder, that I do not wish to change anyone’s point of view. It’s your tradition and culture and I respect, but I don’t have to like it and I would like to figure out how to avoid it. It is all. I would like to stop Australian involvment in American wars, but besides that I don’t mind if Australians like military or not, but I would like to avoid being exposed to that, assuming that is possible, which is the reason for the post, so I can find out.
You’re conflating worship and memorial.
Most small towns sent large portions of their populace to fight in both ww1 and ww2.
These towns wanted their sons remembered and it has become a tradition across Australia to remember the sacrifices made by our military personnel to ensure that our way of life is preserved and that you’re able to imegrate here and live how ever you like.
To answer your question I don’t think you will find many towns at all. Most Australians are proud of our history and want it celebrated and sacrifices remembered.
Thanks for the answer. I disagree with the opinion regarding “sacrifices”, “way of life” and so on, but it’s one shared by the majority of Australians I talked to, so I can’t really debate it. I do respect it however. It’s something you consider culturally important. I hope you understand I see it in a different way as someone who came from a foreign country that could as well be invaded and have the same rethoric.
I’ll be honest, I think you’re going to struggle to find anything that suits you purely because you seem to be looking for ways to be upset and put your views of war onto others.
I think first of all, you’re confusing remembrance, and honouring the loss of soldiers lives, for military worship. Many people have lost loved ones who’ve fought in wars to protect them. So they try remember that honour and sacrifice, to show respect for the lives lost and to remember what they fought for. You’re viewing each soldier as a part of a collective, each war as something that could have been avoided. But many see them as friends and family lost forever. As people whom they loved and cared for. Would you not be upset if those close to you died? Would that change if they died fighting in a war? Most monuments and statues I’ve seen in Australia refer to WW1 and WW2 as well. We lost a lot of good people trying to fight against a powerful, violent enemy.
Military worship would be praising current soldiers and bowing and treating them specially. I’ve never seen that in Australia. We treat soldiers as regular people. In small towns you’ll likely see some show for them, as they’ve likely been away from home at a military base for a long time and are now returning. They’re not celebrating war, they’re welcoming the return of family and friends.
Because you seem to dislike war, you’re placing the values you see onto others. You need to gain perspective and realise the intent of why we honour the dead and remember our history. It is not to glorify war.
You say it should be like owning a gun and constantly proving you’re not doing something wrong? I don’t get what you mean by that. There are gun owners in Australia, and they aren’t constantly made to prove they’re not doing anything wrong. Our military history is far from perfect, especially in modern times. But statues and monuments and parks aren’t to ignore that. You see praising the good as ignoring the bad, when that is not the intention.
Many people have lost loved ones who’ve fought in wars to protect them. So they try remember that honour and sacrifice, to show respect for the lives lost and to remember what they fought for.
The thing is, I come from a different country, so it’s natural for me to think “what about the other side? didn’t they lose lives? wheren’t those lives taken by Australians, same as the Australians where taken from them?”
I don’t have patriotism. Australian lives are as important as Turkish, Korean, Vietnamese, etc, etc. If there should be a monument for Australian lives lost, there should be a same amount for lives Australians took. There should be no monument for anyone taking anyone’s lives in my opinion. I have the same opinion for my country of origin.
Would you not be upset if those close to you died?
I would be upset if someone close to me died. But if he died going to a war to kill someone, I would never blame who killed him, but who made him go there. There is a vilain and an enemy in these stories, but I think it’s usually not the guy with the weapon. It’s the guys behind them. Every soldier usually think he’s fighting for something good (except a big part who just really enjoy killing).
Because you seem to dislike war, you’re placing the values you see onto others. You need to gain perspective and realise the intent of why we honour the dead and remember our history. It is not to glorify war.
Unfortunately I can’t make my question about the towns without exposing my reasons, my feelings regarding the issue. I do not plan to change anyone’s point of view here (and I regret that I am debating, but how can I talk about it without expressing my reasons?), just trying to find how to live happily in a society with a few values I don’t share. Every country will have that.
Sorry about the gun comparison. I am ignorant of the laws regarding guns. I thought gun owners had to prove every once in a while the gun is safe and they are sane.
And as I said in another post, I think the intentions of the memorials, if they are as you say, are not having the proper effect.
Again you’re failing to see the other side. Falling back into ignorance. Most of what you’ve said is horrifically arrogant. You’ve ignored my most important points. This response may seem angry but your response comes off as incredibly selfish. You seem to think war is a choice made by both sides. It honestly comes off entitled and selfish.
The thing is, I come from a different country, so it’s natural for me to think “what about the other side? didn’t they lose lives? wheren’t those lives taken by Australians, same as the Australians where taken from them?”
My parents immigrated here as well. That doesn’t really affect anything. Those people have monuments in their home towns and countries. Where they are from. Do you think every country should honour every person ever? Do you think those people want monuments in the countries they fought against? I highly doubt anyone would. Like I said and you’ve ignored, it’s to honour their family and friends.
I don’t have patriotism. Australian lives are as important as Turkish, Korean, Vietnamese, etc, etc. If there should be a monument for Australian lives lost, there should be a same amount for lives Australians took. There should be no monument for anyone taking anyone’s lives in my opinion. I have the same opinion for my country of origin.
Again you’re being seemingly purposefully ignorant. This isn’t patriotism, although I was born here with my siblings, the rest of my family were not and they can still understand what memorials are for.
This is about real people, not the concept of a countries military. You refuse to separate the person from the soldier. You treat every soldier as if they’re one single entity whose life only consisted of war. They are people, and it’s rude of you not to treat them as people. The monuments are not for taking lives, but for lives lost. They’re not posting kill counts and bragging. They’re remembering their dead friends and family.
I would be upset if someone close to me died. But if he died going to a war to kill someone, I would never blame who killed him, but who made him go there.
Again, you’re ignoring my point. These aren’t blame to those who killed him. And what do you mean made him go there, do you believe every soldier is drafted? Or are you saying whomever starts a war is always wrong? The point was, if you lost a friend, you’d likely want to honour them.
There is a vilain and an enemy in these stories, but I think it’s usually not the guy with the weapon. It’s the guys behind them. Every soldier usually think he’s fighting for something good (except a big part who just really enjoy killing).
You’re just making up points to justify your feelings. There is villains and enemies on both sides in a war. Blood on all hands. There’s complications to every aspect of life. It’s just easier for you to call things black and white and call yourself smart for choosing a side. War is an unfortunate but real part of life. You’re just imagining you’re more intelligent and more evolved for not wanting violence. It’s honestly quite arrogant. Sometimes there isn’t a choice but to get a weapon when you’re being fired at. Assuming a big part of soldiers love killing? Why because of a few Hollywood movies? No, you’re just trying to justify your beliefs.
Unfortunately I can’t make my question about the towns without exposing my reasons, my feelings regarding the issue. I do not plan to change anyone’s point of view here (and I regret that I am debating, but how can I talk about it without expressing my reasons?), just trying to find how to live happily in a society with a few values I don’t share. Every country will have that.
But you’re not willing to change, so you expect society to change for you. You’ve made your mind, are ignoring all the points I’ve made, and refusing to see another perspective. All you’ve done is double down and brag about your pacifism. Quite frankly, I doubt there’s a country in the world that will suit your ego.
And as I said in another post, I think the intentions of the memorials, if they are as you say, are not having the proper effect.
I’ve never seen a single opinion as narrow minded as yours. The effect is clearly just missed by you, because you don’t want to see it. You’re making yourself feel smart, superior, better than others for making choices with hindsight. Quite frankly it’s arrogant and shameful.
Since you ignored my entire point of separating the soldier and person in my first post, I won’t be responding again. You need to remember a person is more than their job. They were a brother, a son, a friend, a student, so many things to so many people. It’s rude of you to boil down their existence to your narrow view of the world. Keep feeling superior for not wanting war and imagining the rest of the world is bloodthirsty and violent. Because with that much ego, you’ll be alone a long time.
Sorry, you wrote a lot and I feel disrespectful not to answer, but you are really seeing this in a very emotional and deep manner. It would end up being just a fight. I am not trying to offend you and what you consider important. You just have to understand that others might not find it as important for various reasons.
There would be much I could talk about, but better not to let this get emotional. I am just looking for a place, not trying to change how anyone sees the issue.
You’re living on stolen land that was invaded by divine right. If you can ignore that, you can ignore a few war memorials.
To me, that part, just like the war, should be learned about, its consequences dealt with, and forgotten about and just shamed. This happened before anyone I know was born. We will live with the consequences but it’s not their fault.
But unlike the wars, I don’t see monuments for aboriginal genocide. Oddly enough, I don’t see monuments remembering the murdered aboriginals either. Even though most of the small towns I’ve been to had a rich history of aboriginal massacres.
As some other mentioned, the monuments were often built soon after the war by people who had recently lost their relatives. When there were massacres of Aboriginal peoples, they obviously didn’t have the authority and resources to build similar memorials in towns, and to be blunt, the towns probably had few people who cared enough to build anything on their behalf, even now there are few public memorials (and often small ones) of massacres and Aboriginal loss. And that difference you pointed out reveals a lot about we see the historical effects of who has power and who writes history.
Another user mentioned his town have monuments built in 80s. I believe a number of them built monuments just because there is a consensus that you have to do it. It became like an unwritten law (I think it’s actually a law). You have to build monuments, you have to keep remembering, you can’t question it. If you do you are a traitor and deserve consequences. The usual issue with patriotism of any kind. If you are not with us, you are with them.
And yes, the specific things that need to be remembered and all the rest that can be forgotten. It is the base of my problem with the memorials. “Remember this, don’t mind the rest” Police, doctors, every day people who give their lives for something don’t get monuments and the rules that defines what does troubles me.
I see war memorials as a reminder of what we’re trying to avoid, not as a glorification.
Yes, that’s often what people tell me. But the actions and behavior in general tell a different story.
It’s not something someone can say “I’m proud because we killed people”, like many patriotic feelings, but the feeling is still there, just in different words. “I’m proud because we defended freedom”.
But the americans believe that about all the current invasions. And australians go to each one of them. So it seems the mistake keep being repeated, and glorified again and again. I see many memorials about vietnam, korea, even iraq and so on. So if people are supposed to learn a lesson, it just seem to be that it should be perpetuated.
Which is why it bothers me a lot.
I got to Anzac memorial services each year. And for me, it isnt worship, it is a memorial about those that did indeed sacrifice theirs lives and mental health to the atrocities of both world wars.
That said, what I take from it, and share with my child is that we must remember, so that we can avoid another one.
I have not seen worship in Australia, and your use of the word makes me think that you misunderstand the monuments. I expect there are some that worship, but it is exceedingly rare in everyday life.
I expect that you will be able to see past the memorial in the town the fits you.
(PS: thanks for the question, it is really interesting and written in such a way that I believe you are genuine in your search. Good luck!)
Thanks for respectfully disagreeing. Yes, as I said on other post, the term I use is not quite right, but it’s how I see it. I just fundamentally see these things in a different way. What you guys see as mourning I see as celebration. But I do understand the intention.
I believe I will learn to see past it (though for 10 years I haven’t yet). But if I found my objective it would be a nice bonus.
And thanks, it is genuine. I traveled dozens of thousands of km looking for my ideal town, which I still hope to find!
In many towns, the RSL (Returned Servicemans League) was the only place a family could go that was licensed, but also family friendly. And where there is an RSL, there is ANZAC commemoration.
And on ANZAC day itself, most of Australia turns towards military commemoration, because ANZAC
So you’ll be hard pressed finding a town that doesn’t have any military commemoration. But in my experience growing up in country town Australia, outside of the RSLs and ANZAC day, most towns don’t really have much military interest or history.
Ah yes, many of the ones I went to didn’t have military history. Yet they made worship monuments just for the war in general. As a kind of obligation or something. I see RSL as just a place where people can go to gamble, so I don’t even really associate it with military. It was much later that I learned that it’s not just a gambling and drinking club, but something related to military which was a very weird mix to me.
ANZAC… yes… I dislike that a lot, but you can just avoid any event, unlike monuments everywhere.
Did your city not have any monument?
I can’t think of any such monuments (aside from Anzac ones) in my home town or the nearby towns. But I grew up in NSW, not QLD. I don’t know how they compare
Which town was it if you don’t mind me asking? Or maybe you could PM me if it’s sensitive information? Is it cold? It’s another thing I’m avoiding, which is why I’m all over Queensland. Thanks
