I also asked this on socialism and communism at lemmy.ml, but was advised to also ask on a non .ml community.
I watched this video, and it made me want to take a deep dive into socialism/communism, with as much objectivity as I can. https://youtu.be/BeRjTtKFlVM
I understand how capitalism works, and I have doubts that it is a sustainable system for society long term, but social democracy has been a good way of keeping capitalism in-check in Norway. So even if capitalism is not ideal, it is in theory possible to tax the rich more and keep the whole thing going in the future. I also understand the exploitation and the extraction of surplus value, rent seeking etc.
Other capitalist countries such as the US is currently struggling with basic human needs. And that is “the shining beacon of capitalism”.
In Norway it has for a long time been common to use the US as an example of what not to do.
What I am interested in learning is how society would operate and function under socialism / communism. More about the differences. Preferably from less dry sources than The Capital from Marx. Where can I learn more? Preferably a bit entertaining.
It is important to me that it is historically accurate and factually correct.
Look forward to your replies 😊
Can second Capital being entertaining, I’m about a third of the way through Volume 1 and Marx’s writing is dripping with personality and metaphor.
Still going to read them as a part of Hexbear’s weekly reading threads, haha. I’m aware of them being unfinished and mostly drafts, but at this point I have a real need to read them all, including the extra-unfinished Volume IV.
First off, it’s fantastic to see that you’re willing to learn! That’s great, it’s really commendable. Consider making an account on Lemmy.ml, Hexbear.net, Lemmygrad.ml, or even Lemm.ee, so you can see more of what the so-called “tankies” are actually saying, rather than having them blocked from view on Lemmy.world.
As for answering your questions, I want to speak on Norway first. Norway, and the western countries in general, are “Imperialist” by Marxist standards. Norway essentially bribes its proletariat with a portion of the spoils it reaps from hyper-exploiting the Global South, through methods such as IMF loans and outsourcing production. Norway keeps Capitalism temporarily in check simply for its own workers, but acts parasitically towards the Global South.
Of course, the United States, despite being worse for its workers, is by far the largest and worst Empire, it’s just that the spoils of Imperialism are divied up even more lopsided, where the 1% earn unfathomable sums off of it.
When looking at Socialism and how it functions, look to “AES” countries, or “Actually Existing Socialism.” These include Cuba, Vietnam, the PRC, Laos, DPRK, the former USSR, etc. Right off the bat, alarm bells are probably ringing for you, but keep 2 things in mind:
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You are not immune to propaganda. The Red Scare and Anticommunism in the West is deeply penatrating, and likely clouds much of how you see these countries.
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A system being Socialist does not make it a wonderland Utopia, they still exist in the real world and face real problems, both internal and external.
In Marxist terms, Socialism is where Public Ownership is the Principle aspect of the economy. Large firms and key industries being publicly owned means that the Public Sector is the one with power over the economy. The PRC, for example, has its large firms and key industries overwhelmingly publicly owned, while the private sector is dominated by cooperatives, sole proprietorships, and small firms. This is because Marx believed you had to develop out of small ownership, not simply make it illegal, hence why you’ll see Socialists talk about the Productive Forces all the time. Norway, as an example, has the large firms in the Private Sector, and the Public Sector is in service of the Private.
That’s a quick overview! I skipped over so much because it’s really a vast topic that unfortunately does require reading. I keep an introductory Marxist-Leninist Reading List I designed to be easy to get into and not be quite so dry. This is the best path to get a firm understanding of theory, and is what @Fidel_Cashflow@lemmy.ml tagged me here for (thanks, comrade!).
Alternatively, I will recommend reading just the first section for now, made up of Principles of Communism, followed by Blackshirts and Reds, and Dr. Michael Parenti’s 1986 Lecture. Afterwards, Blowback is an excellent podcast talking about US Imperialism, and frequently touches on sympathetic portrayals of Socialist movements. You won’t be a theory expert, but those will help drive interest in theory in general. I’d also read Dessalines’ Crash Course Socialism if you go this route!
Feel free to ask me any questions if you have any about Marxism, Marxism-Leninism, etc, and I’ll do my best! 🫡
Sorry for copying and pasting this response to your other 2 threads, but I figured it would be beneficial for you to see the various responses to my comment on the different communities, in how they differ.
Also, side-note! I don’t think asking this question will be complete without asking on a Lemm.ee account or other more broadly federated account will get you the full picture, most Communists on Lemmy are on Lemmygrad.ml and Hexbear.net, and you can’t see any of their responses.
Noam Chomsky, David Graeber, Aaron Benanav, Howard Zinn… A good fictional book that defamiliarizes capitalism is ‘The Disposessed’ by Ursula Le Guinn.
If you’re looking for video makers, i would recommend Zoe Baker, which has an academics background, and Andrewism, who is may be less strict on reference than you are looking for, though. Both are quite focusing on anarchism, but Zoe sometimes talks about relations between anarchism and marxism.
If you happen to speak french, or if anyone speaking french finds this comment, i also love the Minutes Rouges videos.
I’d recommend that you try to learn from different movements, communism is very prone to diversity (aka groups and movements are splitting and fighting all the time), so you cannot really know one movement without knowing what its detractors say.
Socialism and communism are not the same. Communism is bad. Socialism is good.
Most communist are much more right wing than your average American liberal when you look at the broader picture. It dosent just stop at Universal Healthcare or what not.
There’s Free Market Capitalism (Good) and Crowny Capitalism (Bad). But communist (most of this sub) will tell you both are bad. The older you get, the more you’ll realize this.
Can you elaborate a bit on why you believe free market capitalism is good?
Why do you believe that socialism and capitalism is good, and communism is bad?
Your argument at least partially rests on the logical fallacy of equating age with wisdom and good opinions. Instead of arguments covering pros and cons.
I am skeptical of capitalism as a sustainable system, but see advantages such as allowing demand dictate production. The people “vote” for increased production of a given commodity by buying it, and “vote” for decreased by not. Advertisements manipulates the “vote”, which is why I am skeptical of advertisements, and believe it should probably be banned.
Planning consumption in society is a really hard task, but can potentially work if there is a way to effectively detect real demand. This is a real challenge, because in capitalism it “hurts” when you buy something. You have to weigh your options and consider if it is worth the money. I don’t think this is impossible, but I don’t know how.
Allowing the workers and state to own the means of production, that is more obvious. But also has the challenge of predicting future demand in both a local and a global market. If we have free markets for goods and services, we can determine demand with more accuracy and then decide to produce or increase production of a good or service.
In other words the people should have money to buy goods, but their workplace should be owned by themselves or the state. This is socialism if I understand correctly?
Just gonna start with a warning, I’m a LIBERAL, but stick with me 😂. This is gonna be kind of long, but I hope you understand.
There’s 3 main types of political paths in this world. Communism, Socialism and Capitalism. Just to keep it straight forward, I’ll just rank all 3 right now.
- Socialism
- Capitalism
- Communism
Since your comment primarily focuses on economics, here we go.
Socialism, think the UK, Canada, Sweden (for the most parts). Is pretty much when the government will do its best to make sure basic needs and inequality is met. Healthcare, College Disaster Relief (FEMA, also explains why trump wants to get rid of it, will elaborate later). These essentials are funded through taxes, usually high taxes. But still allow for the private sector to make their own alternatives (FREE MARKET). However, Socialist Countries also recognize the economic importance of free market capitalism, NOT CRONY CAPITALISM. Free Markets emphasize competition with minimal support from the government, but HIGH regulation from the government to ensure the Demand Side (Us, the consumers) have the advantage over the Supply Side (Businesses). This challenges the Supply Side harder than the Consumer Side, as it should be. Meaning businesses will have to compete harder for our money.
Capitalism, think the United States, India and Russia, YES RUSSIA. I’m assuming by capitalism, you mean crony capitalism, which I hate. These countries have elements/illusions of free markets, but are dominated by the private sector. Crony Capitalism is when the government lacks regulations to keep the Demand Side in the advantage over the supply side. This is mainly done through government contracts, subsidies and soft regulatory systems. Think Elon giving Space X a new big budget government contract, WHILE HES IN THE FUCKING GOVERNMENT! Think bank bailouts. Think Trump gutting the CFPB, where Biden had used that agency to heavily regulate business and stop monopolies. Why do you think so many CEOs are cozying up to trump, they know he’s a crony capitalist and that’s where the money is at. Similar with India and Russia. This form of capitalism disgust me and limits competition in the free market. Giving the Supply Side less incentive to compete for our money and price gouge us.
Communism, I ranked last, because it is a truly awful system is the modern day, maybe in the era of feudalism, but today it’s just not good. Think Cuba, North Korea and elements of China. Pretty much everything is ran by the government, and I mean EVERYTHING.
Home Ownership - Government Start a Business? - Government Schools - Government Restaurants - Government Wanna Use an App Like This? - Government
Modern Day communism is fucking dystopian. Especially with current technology and being able to spy on citizens. I see a lot of “comrades” praise communism because it gives Universal Healthcare, dude, EVERYTHING is universal. And with lack of taxation and free markets to fund everything, that healthcare is not the best. Communism sets to make everyone economically equal, which sounds great on paper, but we live in reality. If I make a great invention in Cuba, I cannot sell my product for personal gain, I have to give it over to the government, because I must remain in the system. Even a Crony Capitalist system will let me do this. Going to college and getting an education in a communist country is pointless due to a lack of incentives. It’s like playing an open world game with no missions, just exploration. I know we’re focusing on economics, but I can’t talk about communism without bringing up social issues. Individual freedoms are tied to the government’s ideology in communist countries and cannot be challenged. None of the countries I’ve listed for this allow gay marriage except Cuba, which only legalized it a couple years ago, but it isn’t perfect. Same goes for racial or religious differences. Sounds a lot similar to what Trump is doing to desensitize minorities. Cuba is probably the most progressive communist country out there though. Trust me, you DONT want to live in a communist society.
Overall, to keep it short and simple.
Socialism/Free Market Capitalism = Good (The Gold Standard for a country.
Capitalism/Crony Capitalism = Bad (But can be worked within)
Communism/No Capitalism = Bad (Dystopian)
There’s so much to talk about this. But I have no idea why so many people on this sub call themselves “comrades” and support communism.