If the real Jesus stood for all the same values that you do, why are you an Atheist?
Assuming all the stories are true and accurate, Jesus from the Bible was a pretty chill dude and good human. His dad, on the other hand, makes Hitler look like Mr Rogers. So there’s that.
I used to believe it all, but the more I learned, the more I questioned, the more I questioned, the more it all fell apart.
Notable things that led to my deconstruction/atheism:
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The sheer number of times the Bible has been edited. From key words omitted or added to entire books added or removed. It’s like a cobbled together series of Grimms Fairy Tales and Op Ed news articles by hundreds of people for over a thousand years. If it was real then why has it been edited and changed so much though history? Couldn’t a god that wrote that make it divine and unalterable.
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The sheer number of contradictions.
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The fact that there are countless thousands of other religions all claiming to be the only one. Most have their own books. Their own prophets. Their own stories. There’s a ton of overlap and commonality, almost as if they all pull from similar cultural stories. If any religion were true, wouldn’t that god have some way to make their religion the only one? And if you want to argue that it is a test of some sort then it’s a crazy test because it’s impossible to ever choose one out of thousands of clones and spinoffs.
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If it is all true, why did the god need people to write a book to tell the story, but did it hundreds of years after the Jesus stuff and thousands of years after the creation stuff? Couldn’t the lore book have been created and existed on a little pedestal for all to see or something? What about the millions of people that died before it was written? What about all the people that have lived and died having never heard about it even once? It’s unfathomable.
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If religion is good and right and moral then why are priests, pastors, and other religious leaders the ones committing so many SAs and other awful behaviors? Similarly, why is an entire political party so intertwined and permeated with religion while committing the most awful of actions?
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Lastly, go read the old testament, specifically all the stories where the response to almost everything is murder and genocide. Like, one person commits some sin and the god just murders everyone and burns the whole city down. Seriously? That’s “good”? That’s worthy of belief and worship? The flood story. The Jericho story. The Sodom and Gammorah story. Etc etc. That god’s solution to everything is psychopathic mass destruction and death. You’d think a good god would come down and be like “Hey guys, let’s talk”.
Yeah, I get where you’re coming from. My dad was a real asshole as well. He’d literally rather leave me dying in a ditch than suffer a single word of criticism from me. Weird how that works, huh? Almost like there is some truth to the Bible after all…
Unfortunately, I can tell you from harsh experience that becoming atheist and deconstructing the entire faith isn’t going to lead to any sort of salvation at all, the only thing it’ll accomplish is your own undoing. It’s a very slow and agonizing death by a thousand papercuts.
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ― Stephen Roberts
Salvation from what?
I don’t see any proof that there is a god or gods out there. Nor that there is any sort of objective morality. Nor a single shred of evidence for any of it. All the evidence is circular and answers one question while adding another. You may say the Bible says so, but how do we know the Bible is true? And you may say because God said so. So how do we know that is true? You have to assume that either a god or the Bible is true, but you can’t prove it. How do we know your God is the real one and not The Great Flying Spaghetti Monster ™️ ? You can’t prove your god any more than I could prove that. And that’s the issue.
If you can’t even prove there is a god or morality or anything then why should I assume there is anything to be saved from?
I don’t believe in gods or religions or the concept of “sin” and “salvation” at all anymore. I just can’t without some form of proof. I can’t accept the “because it is” or “because God said so” or “because Bible said so” anymore. All of those things require you to believe in them first and then add on “proofs”. But for every proof you can add there is also a proof to the contrary.
And on top of that, I am so much happier and less anxious and less worried and stressed now after getting out of all that. The constant fear and worry about my soul and eternity and salvation and converting others and all that was so much. It was painful to live like that. After letting it all go I am so much happier and at peace with myself and the universe than before. I don’t ever want to go back into a system where hellfire and brimstone is yelled at me. Or even worse a system where a god demands that I worship and love him OR ELSE SUFFER FOREVER! Because that isn’t love, it’s manipulation and control and threats and fear.
I simply can’t anymore. I burned out all my ability to ignore reality and believe elaborate stories. And I honestly don’t think I can ever go back to blindly believing it all. It feels like waking up from a fever dream.
I can tell you from harsh experience that becoming atheist and deconstructing the entire faith isn’t going to lead to any sort of salvation at all, the only thing it’ll accomplish is your own undoing. It’s a very slow and agonizing death by a thousand papercuts.
I deconverted two decades ago and nothing wrong came out of it. If anything, the immoral hypocrites who provoked problems from within the faith kept creating those problems and covering for each other, so things would have gone better if more people deconverted.
I’m sorry you weren’t in a good mental place to healthily finish the process though.
I don’t think there was a real Jesus but I concede you do have a point. Everyone builds Jesus in their own image, even atheists. It takes effort not to. The natural tendency of anyone who was ever infected with this meme or has Christian friends is to try to find something redeeming about him.
Have heard male homosexuals tell me he was gay, heard black power types tell me he was black, heard a scholar in Greek literature tell me he was a secret Hellenistic Jew, heard him described by hippies as a hippy, by fire and brimstone types that he laid down the law, by SJW that he was a social activists, by communists that he was a communist, by a pacifist that he was a pacifist, by rabbis that he was a rabbi…
He can’t be all of those things, he can however be none of those things. He is the blank slate that people scribble on what they want, and what they want is a version of themselves with super powers.
That’s a very good point, and it’s interesting that you rarely (if ever) hear atheists claim that he was an atheist because he made himself equal to God and abolished the church of his ancestors in order to replace it with his own. It’s almost as if they either didn’t understand the Gospel, or they simply do not want that kind of responsibility, and prefer to endlessly complain about organized religion instead.
If I stand for all the same values that Jesus did, does that by default make me the son of God?
That depends on what you mean by “stand for”. Do you only preach those values on the Internet, where no one can ultimately hold you accountable? Or do you live them in real life, where standing up for them might entail taking risks to defend them?
“Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.” — Matthew 7:21
And what if they actually do practice them in real life?
Are they then the son of god?
Because Jesus or any other mythical figure is not required for anyone to have the same or similar values.
Your logic doesn’t follow. Evidence for the existence of Jesus and god – either the Yahweh or any of the other ones – is scant (in the case of Jesus) or nonexistent (in the case of his dad). Sharing similar values to what Jesus allegedly had is not evidence for his existence, nor that of any gods. In this context, the “real” Jesus is as he is depicted in scripture. That doesn’t necessarily mean he was a real person in reality, so don’t get that part twisted. What the poster you’re replying to is interpreting a character as he was written.
It’s exactly the same thing as claiming, “Captain Picard would not do XYZ, because it is inconsistent with how he was written in every single episode.” That may be so, and maybe we all know who Captain Picard is and what he does, but that still doesn’t make Picard a real person. Having a taste for tea, Earl Grey, hot does not require that any person actually believe that Picard physically existed, nor that his published actions were anything more than the fancy of some scriptwriters.
Because Jesus or any other mythical figure is not required for anyone to have the same or similar values.
That’s true, but it helps having an example as a role model to look up to, because you’re not going to go far without one.
Honestly, I could care less if it’s Jesus, Luke Skywalker, or Jean-Luc Picard, as long as your atheism isn’t an excuse for smoking weed and watching porn all day. All I’m saying is to be careful about throwing out the baby with the bathwater when you leave organized religion behind, because while the church you grew up in may very well have been a den of thieves and fully deserve your condemnation, not all of them are, and there’s thieves outside of the church, too.
Because there are plenty of people who stand for the same values, and I don’t worship them either.
Nothing in the other user’s message said anything about not upholding those values.
For me, I don’t need jesus to give me morals, I have them on own. I don’t believe in a angry guy in the clouds creating this. It’s mind blowing to me, that people believe in it, it’s clearly a form of control. There are many religions, what makes one right over another? Feelings? I like to think more scientifically and logically.
Right?
I have decided I want to be a good person. I don’t need a sky daddy looming over me threatening torture if I do something wrong.
In fact, I would argue I’ve become a better and nicer and more accepting person after leaving religion. I was taught to basically hate LGBTQ, all the other religions, and a list of other “sins” and “wrong beliefs”…
It’s just another form of tribalism and control. I’m out. I’m gonna be over here being as kind and compassionate to my fellow humans as I can.
I like to go with, be a good a human. It’s really not hard, but there is a lot of people that choose not to be.
