for all the "anti-authoritarians" out there(lemmy.ml)

Ok, I’ve read it and I’m not impressed. The post on hexbear tries to act as if they were seriously considering the anarchist point of view, they are constantly being disingenuous.

The biggest point of critique againstEngels is that he is effectively strawmanning anti-authoritarians, by using a definition of authority that differs from the anarchist definition in a fundamental way. While the hexbear author acknowledges that fact in the beginning and seems to take the (IMHO flawed) definition of the anarchist’s critique at face value, he repeats the same mistake that Engels did and takes Engels’ definition as the only logical one.

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OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml

0 points

7 months ago

The post on hexbear tries to act as if they were seriously considering the anarchist point of view, they are constantly being disingenuous.

I think you’re confusing dismissing your viewpoint after engaging with it in a serious way with being disingenuous

The biggest point of critique againstEngels is that he is effectively strawmanning anti-authoritarians, by using a definition of authority that differs from the anarchist definition in a fundamental way.

You mean the definition of authority that the video you linked as a rebuttal is based on? Because that is the one that is being critiqued in a Marxist Response

he repeats the same mistake that Engels did and takes Engels’ definition as the only logical one

The argument is that the alternate definition that the anarchist proposes is incoherent.

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Prunebutt@slrpnk.net

0 points

7 months ago

They aren’t engaging with the definition in a serious way. That is my point.

I follow a different definition, that’s more complete, IMHO: Authority is the monopolization of power from the hands of the many to the hands of the few. With that definition, which is compatible with the bulk of anarchist theory, “On authority” is nothing, but the incoherent ramblings of someone with too much personal beef.

The hexbear author not once seriously engages with any of the two viewpoints given in the anarchist rebuttal. They give this example of a robbery, where they try to reach a point with the anarchist’s definition and call it absurd. The only reason, they do so, is begause in the middle of their argument, they switch definitions back to Engels’ definition. If I change the preconditions in the middle of my logical chain, shit will get goofy. Duh.

You mean the definition of authority that the video you linked as a rebuttal is based on? Because that is the one that is being critiqued.

No. The video and the essay huse different definitions. You didn’t watch the -ideo, or didn’t listen to it, properly.

The argument is that the alternate definition that the anarchist proposes is incoherent.

The hexbear author fails to do so and doesn’t properly represent the anarchist’s essay’s point of view.

Engels created a straw-man. No anti-authoritarian thinks that necessity, or self-defense is authority. Therefore, they don’t argue against necessity, or self-defense.

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OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml

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7 months ago

I follow a different definition, that’s more complete, IMHO: Authority is the monopolization of power from the hands of the many to the hands of the few.

Okay:

then don’t link a video to defend your point that you don’t agree with
then Marxist Leninist projects meet your definition of anti-authoritarian?

They give this example of a robbery, where they try to reach a point with the anarchist’s definition and call it absurd. The only reason, they do so, is begause in the middle of their argument, they switch definitions back to Engels’ definition.

The robber example rebuts the claim by the most popular anarchist rebuttal that authority is established by unquestioning obedience. Did you not read the anarchist rebuttal?

This feels like a basic misreading of the text.

No. The video and the essay huse different definitions. You didn’t watch the -ideo, or didn’t listen to it, properly.

No, you don’t get to claim this after your failure to read, I spent 45 minutes that I will never get back listening to inane shit like him claiming “steam isn’t authority” without understanding how the circumstances of prime mover operation is socially created and influences downstream production processes, or “delegates and representatives are different actually, silly Engels” It was the same inane failures of reading along similar thrusts to the article.

The hexbear author fails to do so and doesn’t properly represent the anarchist’s essay’s point of view.

How would you know? You didn’t fucking read it, if you didn’t source the argument of “authority is created through unquestioning obedience”!

Engels created a straw-man. No anti-authoritarian thinks that necessity, or self-defense is authority.

There are literally those who think self defense is authority but justifiable authority, did you read the “Problems with “On Authority””? No?

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Prunebutt@slrpnk.net

0 points

7 months ago

The video used the same definition. I never claimed it was congruent with the essay on the anarchist library.
Lol, no. Power was incredibly monopolized by the bolsheviki and their Komisars.

I read the anarchist rebuttal. It made clear that force and authority are different things. The robbery example would not be authority, but force, according to the anarchist essay. The hexbear author didn’t understand that, or misrepresented the anarchist.

It’s ok, if you didn’t get the video. How is steam a monopolization of power?

Do you know the difference between a free and an imperative mandate? If not, then you don’t understand the anarchist’s critique.

How would you know? You didn’t fucking read it, if you didn’t source the argument of “authority is created through unquestioning obedience”!

I did read both the anarchist’s rebuttal and the hexbear comment (as far as I could stomach). I don’t completely agree with the anarchist’s rebuttal, which is why I didn’t share it. The hexbear bloke didn’t genuinely take the anarchist’s proposal seriously, as I’ve explained several times now.

There are literally those who think self defense is authority but justifiable authority, did you read the “Problems with “On Authority””? No?

That’s not what the essay’s author claims. The essay’s author doesn’t view self-defense as “blind obedience”, hence they don’t think it is authority. Please stop misrepresenting stuff, it’s getting exhausting.

It’s no use arguing, if we both don’t accept each other’s definition of authority. You claim that the anarchist definition is incomplete, which you try to prove with Engels’ definition. I say that no anti-authoritarian uses the same definition as Engels and the cycle continues.

Just admit that you don’t want to consider anarchist perspectives. It would save you a lot of time.

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0 points

7 months ago

An anticommunist breadtuber (but I repeat myself) debunks Engels 😂 Anarchism, unlike Marxism-Leninism, has yet to succeed in the real world for more than a few months. We will welcome anarchists’ lectures once they’ve proven their theory in praxis.

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Prunebutt@slrpnk.net

0 points

7 months ago

Anything else than ad-hominem attacks and wishful thinking? Like actually engaging with the actual critique, tankie?

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davel@lemmy.ml

1 point

7 months ago

Anarchism’s lack of success to date is historical fact, and I think that’s reason enough not to take the time to engage with some Burgerland anarchist’s video essay.

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Prunebutt@slrpnk.net

0 points

7 months ago

Someone’s scared, I see.

What a great theorist Engels must have been, given that you must find ridiculous excuses in order to avoid engaging critically with his work. /s

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