feddit.org

4 points

9 days ago

Can you link me to the UN report where they found there was no genocide, and the so-called victims were millionaires?

report

https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/countries/2022-08-31/22-08-31-final-assesment.pdf

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TheOubliette@lemmy.ml

3 points

9 days ago

They don’t even mention the word genocide because that is an accusation exclusive to US propaganda think tanks and those who cite them, i.e. their funders (the US State Department and other imperialist countries’ similar state organs) and friendly media. It is baseless bullshit that can only be entertained by the ignorant.

If you keep searching, you will find another “UN” “report” that attacks China, but this is not the OHCR, it is the usual propaganda thing where countries invite propagandists to a meeting and have them read out accusations. It is not any kind of investigation.

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0 points

9 days ago

How does this report find there was no genocide, if they didn’t mention the word genocide?

I also searched for “million” to try to find the story about all the victims being millionaires now, and I didn’t find that either. Can you or the other person who talked about that tell me more about where I can find it?

I did skim some of the report.

Former detainees interviewed by OHCHR had spent periods of time, generally ranging from two months to 18 months, in facilities in eight different geographic locations across XUAR, including in Ili Kazakh Autonomous Prefecture, Aksu, Bayingol, Hotan, Karamay and Urumqi prefectures.Two-thirds of the twenty-six former detainees interviewed, reported having been subjected to treatment that would amount to torture and/or other forms of ill-treatment, either in VETC facilities themselves or in the context of processes of referral to VETC facilities. These claims of mistreatment took place either during interrogations or as a form of punishment for (alleged) wrongdoing. Their accounts included being beaten with batons, including electric batons while strapped in a so- called “tiger chair”; being subjected to interrogation with water being poured in their faces; prolonged solitary confinement; and being forced to sit motionless on small stools for prolonged periods of time. Persons reporting beatings for confessions described being taken to interrogation rooms that were separate to the cells or dormitory spaces where people were staying. Over two-thirds of the individuals also reported that, prior to their transfer to a VETC facility, they were held in police stations, where they described similar instances of being beaten while also immobilised in a “tiger chair” in those facilities.

Some also spoke of various forms of sexual violence, including some instances of rape, affecting mainly women. These accounts included having been forced by guards to perform oral sex in the context of an interrogation and various forms of sexual humiliation, including forced nudity. The accounts similarly described the way in which rapes took place outside the dormitories, in separate rooms without cameras. In addition, several women recounted being subject to invasive gynaecological examinations, including one woman who described this taking place in a group setting which “made old women ashamed and young girls cry”, because they did not understand what was happening. The Government has firmly denied these claims, often through personal or gendered attacks against the women who have publicly reported these allegations.

Uyghur-majority areas represented the bulk of this decline, with two of the largest Uyghur prefectures especially affected by it. In Hotan, which is 96 per cent Uyghur, birth rates went from 20.94 per cent in 2016 to 8.58 per cent per thousand births in 2018. Similarly, the birth rate in Kashgar, which is approximately 92.6 per cent Uyghur, dropped from 18.19 per cent in 2016249 to 7.94 per cent per thousand births in 2018. Even taking into account the overall decline in birth rates in China, these figures remain unusual and stark. The same applies to the figures regarding sterilisations and IUD placements in XUAR, with official data indicating an unusually sharp rise in both forms of procedures in the region during 2017 and 2018, in comparison with the rest of China. For example, in 2018, sterilisations in XUAR stood at 243 per 100,000 inhabitants, whereas the overall figure for China was a fraction thereof at only 32.1 per 100,000 inhabitants.

Leaving aside the question of whether to draw the conclusion that there is a genocide, do you think that information like the stuff I just quoted from the report you just sent me is accurate?

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TheOubliette@lemmy.ml

2 points

9 days ago

How does this report find there was no genocide, if they didn’t mention the word genocide?

Because it is an investigation into alleged human rights abuses in Xinjiang for the exact period in question in response to the people making these allegations.

The escalation of claims went: human rights abuses -> cultural genocide -> genocide. Both escalations were unjustified and they literally had nothing for the escalation to genocide. It was a claim by a shady organization funded by a CIA cutout.

I also searched for “million” to try to find the story about all the victims being millionaires now, and I didn’t find that either. Can you or the other person who talked about that tell me more about where I can find it?

I haven’t followed the incomes of the grifters pushing this narrative in the West but if you research World Uyghur Congress you will probably find information about this. I do know that they received a lot of funding and have very little to show for it. That money went somewhere.

Leaving aside the question of whether to draw the conclusion that there is a genocide, do you think that information like the stuff I just quoted from the report you just sent me is accurate?

I would need to refresh my memory and look into specific cases because some people have recanted accounts like this or otherwise given very inconsistent stories. I don’t doubt that there were abuses, though. The devil is really in the details. Often it is people from these NED-funded propaganda orgs that are used as sources for these stories and they have a vested interest in how they tell them in order to support their ideological cause and continue receiving funding. For example one of the accounts often touted, and I don’t know whether it is one of those specific examples you mention, is by a business owner whose story constantly changed who fled the country and whose family more or less says is lying. Without her business assets, she received income from these NED funded orgs. It’s a fairly standard playbook at this point.

Incidentally, one of the orgs funded in this way, ETIM, was on the US and others’ terrorism lists until it became convenient to use them to poke China. ETIM are reactionary separatists trying to import Arab salafist positions and wrongly conflate them with Uyghur (Turkic) customs. They are also behind some of the knife attacks and they are related to the al Qaeda-adjascent groups in Syria vowing to bring separatist violence to China right now.

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0 points

9 days ago

I was responding, originally, to this statement:

genocide that the UN investigated and found wasn’t a genocide where all the ‘victims’ that were touted are now millionaires in other countries after selling a story the UN specifically found didn’t happen

I asked because I didn’t know of anything that backs up either of those claims. I still haven’t seen anything that does.

In non-authoritarian contexts, it’s actually pretty normal to ask “Why are you saying this, what is the evidence,” instead of just accepting a browbeating message as, in itself, proof of what’s being claimed. And usually, if someone’s asked for proof and then their proof doesn’t match the thing claimed when you examine it, or they’re hostile to the idea of needing to provide proof in the first place because that’s “sealioning” or whatever, that’s a huge red flag. Likewise it is a red flag if someone makes a claim, and then when asked for evidence they pivot instead into a whole bunch of new claims.

It doesn’t look like you or the other speaker are interested in backing up this stuff. I don’t want to play the Gish Gallop game of indefinitely checking out all these new claims. I really did read the report. I don’t know all that much about Xinjiang, so it was informative for me to see it, so thank you. I didn’t see a strong indication, one way or another, that what’s happening either is or isn’t a genocide. It’s definitely not on the same scale as Gaza or Nazi Germany, but it still does sound to me like they’re aiming to eradicate the culture of these people and replace it Chinese culture, alongside a lot of other human rights abuses. The forced sterilization and wide-scale destruction of mosques, in particular, sounds exactly like eradication.

I would need to refresh my memory and look into specific cases because some people have recanted accounts like this or otherwise given very inconsistent stories.

Okay, so you’re not sure whether the report you sent me was accurate. You’re just interested in using it to back up something that it doesn’t actually back up, but at the same time throwing shade at any part of it that says something you don’t want to hear.

That fact that it doesn’t use the word “genocide” is not, to me, a specific finding that there is not a genocide. They seem like they’re just focused on what the facts of the matter are, instead of the question of whether it fits into some specific value judgement or not.

I’m done here. I was just curious, that’s all. Have a good day.

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Blaze (he/him)@feddit.org

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2 points

9 days ago

Nice comment

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TheOubliette@lemmy.ml

2 points

8 days ago

I asked because I didn’t know of anything that backs up either of those claims. I still haven’t seen anything that does.

The UN report you asked for and that I kindly, without thanks, provided, does so, as I have explained.

In non-authoritarian contexts

What on earth are you talking about

it’s actually pretty normal to ask “Why are you saying this, what is the evidence,” instead of just accepting a browbeating message as, in itself, proof of what’s being claimed.

Cool well I am not the person who originally said anything about this and you have been provided with evidence that you are now more or less ignoring and dismissing out of hand.

And usually, if someone’s asked for proof and then their proof doesn’t match the thing claimed when you examine it, or they’re hostile to the idea of needing to provide proof in the first place because that’s “sealioning” or whatever, that’s a huge red flag.

It does match the claim, you are just not engaging in good faith with what was presented. You have literally not responded at all to my contextualization and are now grandstanding instead. Is that a red flag? And again, I am not the original person you were talking to. Not only have I not been hostile to “providing proof”, I went out of my way to provide what was being referenced.

Likewise it is a red flag if someone makes a claim, and then when asked for evidence they pivot instead into a whole bunch of new claims.

At no point have I pivoted. I have provided you with context you help you understand something that is clearly new to you, however.

It doesn’t look like you or the other speaker are interested in backing up this stuff.

I provided the document, explained its relevance, and provided context you help you understand where the genocide narrative is coming from and how unserious it is. I also offered some possible context for what OP was referring to by people getting rich.

You are now avoiding responding to what I said. If you cannot critically engage with this topic, you do not need to take it out on me with these silly accusations.

I don’t want to play the Gish Gallop game of indefinitely checking out all these new claims

There is no Gish Gallop, this is just a topic you don’t know anything about and I have provided you with several facts. This is not a debate.

I really did read the report. I don’t know all that much about Xinjiang, so it was informative for me to see it, so thank you. I didn’t see a strong indication, one way or another, that what’s happening either is or isn’t a genocide.

It is not the destruction of a people in whole or in part as described by the UN definition, which is obvious by simply comparing it to the report. There are not mass graves, there is no forced migration, children are not stolen, there is no substantial diaspora. There is nothing to the narrative. The onus of proof is actually on those making these claims. I have described, in general terms, where they come from, who makes them. Can you tell me the names od the organization(s)? What were they doing before 2018 or so? Do you know why you are even entertaining this possibility in the first place? Where is your evidence? The UN OHCHR didn’t claim genocide.

It’s definitely not on the same scale as Gaza or Nazi Germany, but it still does sound to me like they’re aiming to eradicate the culture of these people and replace it Chinese culture, alongside a lot of other human rights abuses.

Xinjiang is Chinese. China is a multi-ethnic state. Uyghurs in China are not more or less Chinese than any other citizen in China and it would actually be racist to say otherwise.

The OHCHR report also does not claim that China is trying to eradicate their culture. Where do you get that idea from?

The forced sterilization

It is important to critically interrogate this claim. What did the OHCHR report provide as evidence? What are they specifically referring to as sterilization?

and wide-scale destruction of mosques,

This did not happen and the OHCHR repory does not make this claim. Take note of the limited examples provided and follow the rabbit hole of sourcing. It will be revealing.

in particular, sounds exactly like eradication.

That is why the accusers use language like “forced sterilization” to describe the insertion of IUDs and play with implications based on tortured per capita statistics that are far less scary than presented. If you don’t investigate, all you walk away with is the bad words and no sense of scale or impact.

Okay, so you’re not sure whether the report you sent me was accurate. You’re just interested in using it to back up something that it doesn’t actually back up, but at the same time throwing shade at any part of it that says something you don’t want to hear.

You are confused. I have merely supplied you with what you asked for. Don’t ascribe things to me that I haven’t said.

That fact that it doesn’t use the word “genocide” is not, to me, a specific finding that there is not a genocide.

You can of course use your brain to compare what is claimed to what genocide is. I have already explained this.

They seem like they’re just focused on what the facts of the matter are, instead of the question of whether it fits into some specific value judgement or not.

On the contrary, this report was created at the behest of those accusing China of genocide and this is what they were then provided with.

I’m done here. I was just curious, that’s all. Have a good day.

Your responses are combative, not curious. They are about doubting and fighting, often against things I have not said, and you are not asking questions and then accepting or building on the answers. This is despite you admittingly knowing little about this topic, whereas I clearly feel comfortable speaking about it purely rrom memory because I have actually done the work, done the curious thing.

You can do that, too, but it looks like you will need to stop treating this like some kind of debate to the death first.

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1 point

8 days ago

I asked, “Can you link me to the UN report where they found there was no genocide, and the so-called victims were millionaires?” You sent me a report. It doesn’t say there was no genocide, and it doesn’t say the so-called victims were millionaires. I realize you’re saying that a reasonable person can read the report and conclude that obviously there is no genocide at all, but I don’t completely agree with that. I’m allowed to not agree with you. That’s not “fighting.”

I’m really not trying to be hard to talk to or get you riled up. What you describe as “fighting” or refusing to absorb the information you are providing, I view as just healthy skepticism. If you run way, way ahead of your sources by painting a huge picture, you are completely correct that I’m going to refuse to become passive and let you educate me and believe everything you say. I’m going to take a step back and say, “Well, okay, I get what you’re saying, but what is your backing?” I can do that even if I’m not that familiar with the topic. The fact that you’re so upset that I’m not just believing everything you say is weird to me.

A few detail points:

That is why the accusers use language like “forced sterilization” to describe the insertion of IUDs

This is not accurate. Forced sterilizations, forced insertion of IUDs, and forced abortions are measured as separate things, although they’re sometimes talked about as the related issues that they are. It’s in section 108 which I already quoted.

It is important to critically interrogate this claim. What did the OHCHR report provide as evidence? What are they specifically referring to as sterilization?

Why are you so skeptical, now, of the source that you provided? It’s either trustworthy, when it says that women are being sterilized against their will, or it isn’t. I generally trust the UN, and it seems well-sourced, and you were the one that provided it in the first place, so I see no reason to assume that “sterilization” means something other than sterilization.

and wide-scale destruction of mosques,

This did not happen and the OHCHR repory does not make this claim. Take note of the limited examples provided and follow the rabbit hole of sourcing. It will be revealing.

Yes it does. It’s in sections 85 and 86. I picked one of the rabbit-holes of sourcing, and found https://uhrp.org/report/demolishing-faith-the-destruction-and-desecration-of-uyghur-mosques-and-shrines/, which said “The Chinese government’s current crackdown in the Uyghur region is aimed at eliminating Uyghur ethnocultural identity and assimilating them into an undifferentiated “Chinese” identity. As one of the cornerstones of their identity, Uyghurs’ Islamic faith has been a major target of this campaign, resulting in many Uyghurs being sent to the network of concentration camps. This campaign has also taken the form of eradicating tangible signs of the region’s Islamic identity from the physical landscape. This has involved the whole or partial demolition of an unprecedented number of mosques, including several historically significant buildings.”

It is not the destruction of a people in whole or in part as described by the UN definition, which is obvious by simply comparing it to the report. There are not mass graves, there is no forced migration, children are not stolen, there is no substantial diaspora.

The UN definition of genocide is “any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:”

Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

I already said this: I’m not convinced either way. I read parts of the report, and took it seriously. It talks about forced sterilization and family separation, deaths in custody and executions, and other things that very clearly meet the numbered criteria. But is that being committed with intent to destroy the group as such? I don’t really know. But I don’t think that the UN putting together a report which describes it, but stops short of calling it genocide, means that it’s conclusively proven that it is not genocide.

I’m losing my patience with this conversation, to be honest. It seems like your model is that you say things and I accept them, and I’m “fighting” if I don’t. My model is going to be that I’m going to compare the things you say with things I can source, and see if the claims change or if the backing is solid, and then if after a couple rounds of that it seems like you’re well in accordance with things outside of you that I can find, then okay, I become more trusting. If you’re going to get offended by that, I think you’re going to keep being offended by the conversation, and I think maybe this isn’t going to be productive.

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