Comment by Prunebutt@slrpnk.net on Averages

Because the people conducting these drone strikes would be more closely connected to the community in the US.

These heinous acts were only possible by othering the “foreigners”.

Do you really believe that?

Do you think any of the people who voluntarily joined the military are going to give a shit about anyone other than who is giving them orders? The military is already committing atrocities in plain view all over the world I’m sure will be fine following orders to drone strike a wedding in the USA if theyre told its a terrorist.

Regardless, my point is they won’t need to because the drones that will be doing this will be moatly automated.

Yes, I do believe that, because it’s still people in the military and if it’, a big enough movement, they will have connections with those people.

Also, if the economy grinds to a halt, due to a general strike, they can bomb the workers all they want: it’s not gonna restart the economy.

Or I simply refuse to be such a nihilist. Ifwe can’t establish that, humanity is doomed. It’s literally “socialism or barbarism”.

I admiet I don’t have all the answers, because I don’t think you can have a perfect plan/vision of the future. I only know what I think is to be the best way to get us out of the massive mess we’re in. If you’re seriously interested a more thorough analysis, here’s a video. And here’s the script for the essay if you think youtube isn’t for serious people.

Do you actually know any active military people right now?

We seem to be doing a fine job of “othering” each other right now.

You might want to look up what happened at Kent State, when American soldiers fired on unarmed student protestors. The media spread all sorts of lies about the victims, like that they were a bunch of outside agitators putting LSD in the water supply, and things like that. A week after the shooting, a poll was conducted in which 60% of Americans blamed the students, while only 10% blamed the National Guard. Of course, the media’s narrative didn’t hold up in the long term, and they issued “corrections” about their “mistakes,” once the moment had safely passed.

Othering is not something that’s reserved for foreigners, and there are plenty of people without consciences who the state is more than happy to recruit to do whatever dirty work needs to be done.

A protest is easy to put down, and even then the propaganda machine had to go in overdrive. If a lot of your society is practicing prefiguration (and not just protests), violence like that becomes counter-productive.

Sure. But a lot of our society isn’t practicing prefiguration (at least, as far as I can gather what you mean by that).

Whether violence is effective or counterproductive can’t just be assumed ideologically, it has to be assessed based on the situation. The bulk of human history has involved violent state repression, that the perpetrators have frequently gotten away with (and made bank off of).

If we are in a position where, because of the lack of prefiguration, the state is able to use violence with impunity and then simply lie or blame the victims, then it follows that the state can use violence to prevent prefiguration from occurring, to the extent that it sees it as a threat to its power. It’s a bit of a Catch-22.

That’s not to say it’s a bad idea to try. It’s just a reminder that being right doesn’t stop bullets.

Whether violence is effective or counterproductive can’t just be assumed ideologically, it has to be assessed based on the situation. The bulk of human history has involved violent state repression, that the perpetrators have frequently gotten away with (and made bank off of).

Sure, but the bulk of human history was not ideologically anarchist. I.e. the people were not self-consciously trying to avoid hierarchies. If they didn’t have any, it was just the way things evolved, but they weren’t conscious about rejecting them actively.

If we are in a position where, because of the lack of prefiguration, the state is able to use violence with impunity and then simply lie or blame the victims, then it follows that the state can use violence to prevent prefiguration from occurring, to the extent that it sees it as a threat to its power. It’s a bit of a Catch-22.

In the 20th century, the Marxist-Leninist experiments sucked out all the oxygen from the room by turning all socialist momentum towards those failed projects which just became capitalist again. The world is not the same anymore and a lot of lessons have been learnt and as the empire hegemony weakens and collapses through its own contradictions, there will be space for prefiguration to be practiced and grow. You can’t just take the last 100 of the US at the height of its power and posit that this is how the world will always play out.

Anyway, the best part of prefiguration is that it allows people to do it based on their appetite for risk. What we’re doing right now is a form prefiguration. Supporting piracy, supporting distributed social media, rejecting VC-based capitalism and so on. Not everything can be solved by violence and we can and should flow around it.

Sure, but the bulk of human history was not ideologically anarchist. I.e. the people were not self-consciously trying to avoid hierarchies.

The bulk of people today are not anarchist either. You don’t have to be an anarchist to recognize it as bad when the state enacts violence against you. And for the record, there were various historical movements such as the Diggers in the 1600s, who wanted to create small, egalitarian communities with communal land ownership and public health insurance.

In the 20th century, the Marxist-Leninist experiments sucked out all the oxygen from the room by turning all socialist momentum towards those failed projects which just became capitalist again.

I disagree with this on every count, but the most relevant is this idea that Marxism-Leninism “sucked the oxygen out of the room.” This seems to be coming from a position of philosophical idealism as opposed to philosophical materialism. Why was Marxism-Leninism able to suck the oxygen out of the room? Is it just because people happened to believe one thing over another thing? Or were there material reasons why people turned to Marxism-Leninism?

You can’t just take the last 100 of the US at the height of its power and posit that this is how the world will always play out.

I’m not? I’m both looking at thousands of years of world history, and also not saying that the world will always play out that way.

Not everything can be solved by violence and we can and should flow around it.

Of course not. The idea that violence can solve everything is just as ideological and baseless as the idea that violence never works.

The bulk of people today are not anarchist either. You don’t have to be an anarchist to recognize it as bad when the state enacts violence against you. And for the record, there were various historical movements such as the Diggers in the 1600s, who wanted to create small, egalitarian communities with communal land ownership and public health insurance.

Yes, but those driving for anarchism and prefiguration are.

Utopian socialists trying to create small communes during feudalism were doomed to fail and entirely irrelevant to our situation.

Is it just because people happened to believe one thing over another thing? Or were there material reasons why people turned to Marxism-Leninism?

Sure, ML was a great transition plan for agrarian/feudalist societies to pivot towards capitalism, and as such it provided comparatively a lot of the same benefits liberalism did.

As to why it sucked the oxygen out of the room, it’s because US and USSR propaganda happened to align for a brief moment in time to paint state capitalism as “socialism” for different reasons, until it inevitably collapsed upon itself. Therefore those interested in socialist alternatives thought ML-styles communism can work during that time and tried to do the same instead of anarchism.

I’m not? I’m both looking at thousands of years of world history, and also not saying that the world will always play out that way.

Thousands of years of history under monarchy are also irrelevant in this situation.

Of course not. The idea that violence can solve everything is just as ideological and baseless as the idea that violence can solve everything.

You misunderstand. Not every problem of the state can be solved with violence. Which is to mean, state violence can’t crush prefiguration

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