feddit.org

2 points

2 months ago

You can’t load software on your own device unless apple gives you permission even though you bought the device. I know how this goes every single time though. I can list features you don’t have or reasons why apple is trash and none of them will concern you at all. You will claim you don’t need other browsers but safari, you don’t need features android has had for years, you don’t need usb-c. Exactly the same conversation every time. When apple eventually gets any of these features, you will be ecstatic and love the company for them. It’s a cult.

And inb4 I am in the Google cult. Nope, fuck Google.

report

[ - ]

bamboo@lemm.ee

1 point

2 months ago

Those are a lot of words you put in my mouth. In fact, I can and have sideloaded apps (the process is stupid and overcomplicated, but it does work, I am not in the EU), and my iPhone does in fact have USB C (was a dealbreaker, I used a Pixel until iPhones had USB C). I wish I could use other browsers on my phone besides Safari but it’s not a dealbreaker for me, I can and do run Firefox on my computer when I need a different browser for any reason, I hope this will change in the future.

report

[ - ]

2 points

2 months ago

Apologies for my incorrect assumptions. I have had some very exhausting conversations with apple users. The EU had to force apple to use USBC (among other things no other company needs forcing to do) which is just insane. Honestly I’m a bit shocked that you came from Android phones and haven’t noticed the difference. There are many areas where you have little to no choice on iOS. How have you not noticed? If apple doesn’t want you to do it, you basically can’t.

If the browser thing was the only thing that would be a deal breaker for me for sure. You could install any browser you wanted on computers thirty years ago. How is it a thing that in 2024 a company is literally preventing you from installing a web browser on a phone that you bought?

There are many countless examples I’ve noticed over the years of things that cannot be done or are harder on iOS. On my android phone (and I wish there were options besides Android btw, because fuck Google) I can use SyncThing to keep my photos and other files backed up automatically without paying any cloud service. On iOS, last I checked you could even use a file manager, let alone anything remotely like SyncThing. They literally lock you out of doing anything that would cost them a penny. Such a shitty business model, removing any choice that doesn’t put money in their pockets.

report

[ - ]

bamboo@lemm.ee

1 point

2 months ago

I’m very aware that there is less choice and have run into the various related issues. Ultimately it’s still been a positive experience, despite that.

report

[ - ]

2 points

2 months ago

… Ok.

Out of curiosity, what functionality and what rights am I sacrificing?

So you knew all about this, you just wanted me to give specific examples so you can decide if you care about them?

To each their own but personally a company locking down the device I paid them for is a non starter. And consistently being years behind the competition when you’re a trillion dollar company is just… Sad.

Seriously imagine how much damage is done to the web as an evolving ecosystem by them disallowing all other browsers on hundreds of millions of devices. I know I personally have spent months of my life specifically supporting Safari in particular. Things that worked immediately on all other tested browsers took a lot of finagling to get working on iOS safari. I could’ve been spending that time developing new features (for all users, not just the wealthiest ones who bought iPhones) and fixing bugs.

report

[ - ]

bamboo@lemm.ee

1 point

2 months ago

Here’s a different perspective on Safari: it’s the largest competition to Chrome there is. It’s the only relevant one, really. Apple forces iOS users to use Safari (or at least WebKit), and that’s the only thing standing in the way of Chrome/Blink having >90% market share. Safari alone stops Google from dictating the web. Firefox is great and I love it but it’s got like 3% market share and is itself funded by Google. Hence I think Safari is really important in maintaining an open web, even if that’s not why Apple is incentivized to force it on users. I know web devs also hate it but requiring they put in the effort to support Safari is what an open web is all about.

report

[ - ]

1 point

2 months ago

Wowwwww, you are accepting what apple forced to happen as the only way things could be.

Safari is by farrrr worse than Firefox and the only reason firefox share is so low is because of (largely Apple’s) anti-competitive monopolistic practices that specifically are about increasing app store revenue. Apple is a huge anti-open-web force like no other company has been before. Even Google, who is horrifically fucking the ecosystem up, lets you install any browser you want, and even though they are a controlling asshole force on the w3c, they don’t completely flout or oppose standards like apple does.

web devs also hate it but requiring they put in the effort to support Safari is what an open web is all about.

I haven’t read a statement this wrong in a while. Fuck no it isn’t. Supporting other browsers, mobile or desktop, is never as difficult as supporting Safari is. There are two reasons for this, both rooted in apple being a blight on the history of the web.

One is that they literally make a conscious choice to make the web worse. Their worst nightmare is for users to be able to replace app store apps with web apps they make no money from, so they intentionally never have adopted most pwa features. They also choose to implement new standards years after everyone else for the same reason. Gotta keep users in the mindset that the web is lacking and not a great solution for anything an app can do. Even if they have to strongarm and brainwash their users to keep that attitude popular.

The other reason would be forgivable, if they weren’t a TRILLION DOLLAR COMPANY: incompetence. I don’t believe Safari is so buggy by choice. They just aren’t great at making a web browser. People love to crow that safari is so fast and light on battery, but only web developers are uniquely qualified to understand how much of a mess it is. For example, try supporting a video player on Safari iOS. Absolute nightmare. Nothing works completely as expected. It is a dumpster fire of bugs.

What the open web is all about is creating web browsers that consistently are all interoperable with websites in the same way. But somehow you’ve shifted that burden to web devs, saying it’s good and necessary for us to toy for weeks with sketchy workarounds for Safari that are not needed by Firefox or chrome. Firefox demonstrates that you don’t need a trillion dollars to make a web browser that isn’t full on garbage and conforms to standards. You just need a team of smart people and literally just to care about the web vs care about keeping it worse.

Even if apple wanted to care about the web, their business model requires them not to. So they will continue to make the web worse until the EU drags them kicking and screaming toward a better business model. And they’ll fight it for years. To spin all of this as apple being the last bastion for web freedom is absolutely cult-lke apologia and you should check yourself.

report

[ - ]

1 point

2 months ago

I just ran into a real world example of Safari’s failure to implement web standards that I wanted to share with you so you can understand that web developers are not just mad about spending a few minutes testing in another browser. Because my company’s user base is not the most affluent, we have to support older versions of Safari. Some of our users are currently experiencing errors because Safari <= 12 iOS does not support a feature that became supported by every major browser in early 2020.

Because of Apple’s decision to not only delay adding support of new web standards (by months or even years), but also to lock the browser version to the OS version, the only browser I see throwing errors about this out of dozens that we get traffic from is Safari iOS. It is worth noting that I routinely see in our logs lots of Android models that were made up to 10 years ago. None of those have issues supporting this (or basically any other modern) feature.

The reason other browsers have no trouble with basic shit like this is that they get updates (usually automatically) on a regular basis. For other browsers, this is a standard part of how the web ecosystem works, even if the user has, say, a 7 year old OS version. But not Safari iOS. You have to update the entire OS or you necessarily get an outdated web experience. Users learned years ago that OS updates might render their perfectly functional device worse off than before, so those who can’t afford to buy new devices opt not to install updates. Afraid to update to iOS 17? Well you get a web experience that is at least a year old.

You have no idea how maddening it is to have to frequently debug code that should’ve worked fine 4 years ago, in a single browser because of shitty monopoly’s choice to avoid making the web “too good”. You also don’t seem to understand how frustrating it would be to be poor and unable to use a website because some random error is happening. Also, btw, these simple “feature not supported” issues are the easiest to deal with. What is even worse are things like their decision to totally hijack how html5 video works on iPhone, deviating from several completely standard ways of operating in every other browser. A video player I have to support has often had no issues in any browser except some particular version of Safari iOS, in which a weird indecipherable race condition is occurring in which some event fires at an unexpected time, which even varies from one version of Safari to the next. Trying to support that shit is so frustrating I’ve almost quit an otherwise cushy job.

None of this is “what the open web is all about”. It is entirely what “retaining profits and market dominance at the expense of an open web” is all about.

report