feddit.org

1 point

4 months ago

yeah no i understand, i’m just saying that’s a potential point where i could’ve originated and then morphed over time. Even if it was founded on race originally, it’s not super likely it would matter today in any broader contexts.

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PeriodicallyPedantic@lemmy.ca

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1 point

4 months ago

Idk if that’s for white folks like me (and you?) to decide, and there is no harm on erring on the side of caution.

It’s like the deal with micro-aggressions. Alone they’re not much, but a constant buildup of these little things can leave someone feeling raw and very sensitive to it.

I don’t think the etymology started with race, I think it started with day/night. But I’m not an expert on etymology, and while I’m very curious, it probably doesn’t really matter here.

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1 point

4 months ago

Idk if that’s for white folks like me (and you?) to decide, and there is no harm on erring on the side of caution.

yeah, probably not, and that’s why i tend to err on the side of these discussions not being very productive. As for erring on the side of caution, idk. I’m not really sure theres that much caution even present to begin with. It might even be sufficient enough to just not use the terms around specific people per their request, or not at all, who knows.

It’s like the deal with micro-aggressions. Alone they’re not much, but a constant buildup of these little things can leave someone feeling raw and very sensitive to it.

i think my problem, is that people have a very analytical and sterile approach to these things. In terms of classifying and denoting things micro aggressions as a term makes sense. But from a broader societal perspective, i think it’s useless, if not negatively impactful.

It’s better to identity specific facets of society that are problematic, for example treatment and behavior of certain people differently from others, as opposed to “treating the symptom” so to speak.

I don’t think the etymology started with race, I think it started with day/night. But I’m not an expert on etymology, and while I’m very curious, it probably doesn’t really matter here.

it really could’ve been from anything, but at the end of the day whatever it started from is irrelevant to it’s use case today, and anybody using it to be offensive is offensive for other reasons at that point.

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PeriodicallyPedantic@lemmy.ca

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1 point

4 months ago

It’s better to identity specific facets of society that are problematic […] as opposed to “treating the symptom” so to speak.

I think it’s difficult to separate the two, they form a feedback loop. It’s like the broken window theory.
People see these little ambiguously exclusionary acts, and if they see enough of them then they get the subconscious message that exclusionary acts are ok, and the (possibly accidental) targets of the acts get the subconscious message that they’re not welcome which makes the subject raw and sensitive and primes them to look at acts through that lens.

In college I took a class on how humans and computers interact, and one of the things my professor was passionate about was how the terminology of programming languages tended to be exclusionary to women. Not explicitly so, but just using violent language that women were raised to find uncomfortable (eg killing a process), and it was pushing women out of computer science.
This was like 15 years ago, and he was already passionate about it at the time, so this isn’t really a new thing, its just getting broader attention.

I don’t know if that’s happening here, but it costs nothing to change so even a potential minor improvement is worth it.

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[ - ]

1 point

4 months ago

People see these little ambiguously exclusionary acts, and if they see enough of them then they get the subconscious message that exclusionary acts are ok, and the (possibly accidental) targets of the acts get the subconscious message that they’re not welcome which makes the subject raw and sensitive and primes them to look at acts through that lens.

this is the reason i think we need to treat them more broadly, it’s a broad problem, the solution also needs to be broad, unless we want to ignore an entire segment of the problem entirely.

In college I took a class on how humans and computers interact, and one of the things my professor was passionate about was how the terminology of programming languages tended to be exclusionary to women. Not explicitly so, but just using violent language that women were raised to find uncomfortable (eg killing a process), and it was pushing women out of computer science.

Did they ever mention the history of the CS field generally being sexist towards women? I would also argue that women being “averse” to terms like killing is equally presumptive, women cooked in the kitchen throughout the 1950’s, you think they got acquainted with the concept and idea of killing things? Like turkeys, chicken, cows, etc. They almost certainly understand the concept of death. They’ve seen it first hand, arguably more so than men throughout history ignoring things like war. If we include child birth it’s even MORE aggressively supporting of this point. It wasn’t that long ago that you would have children, and they would just, die sometimes. These days thankfully, miscarriages are the most significant threat to giving birth to a living child. Those didn’t stop, i’m not sure if they lowered? I think that’s why they’re so statistically prevalent compared to everything else, but idk shit about miscarriages so don’t ask me lol.

Thankfully the sexism in the field has improved, the problem stems more from the CS field being predominately men though. Girls were never really being pushed into the field, there are more being pushed into it now, but it’s still not super significant, even through anecdotal experience, we just need to be engaging girls in the cs field from an earlier stage. People are just predisposed to giving and educated boys about computers, rather than girls, for some reason.

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PeriodicallyPedantic@lemmy.ca

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1 point

4 months ago

Did they ever mention the history of the CS field generally being sexist towards women? Yes, of course. WTH? Why would you ever think someone passionate about this would not bring that up?

I would also argue that women being “averse” to terms like killing is equally presumptive Ok I think you’re intentionally misinterpreting my words now. This is not a dichotomy.

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[ - ]

1 point

4 months ago

Yes, of course. WTH? Why would you ever think someone passionate about this would not bring that up?

well that’s good to know, i figured they would, but that seems like a more historically relevant point to me.

Ok I think you’re intentionally misinterpreting my words now. This is not a dichotomy.

i mean maybe, but it just seems weird to me that we would establish that women comprehend words like “kill” differently, and that we should cater towards that, while we’ve spent the last like, thirty years if not more trying to move away from these things.

I mean we literally have deer hunting seasons to cull the population of deer as they no longer have natural predators, what’s the harm in using the term “killing” for referring to ending a process. It makes sense when you think about it. A process is born or created, and then it may fork, or it may not, and those forks may be killed, they may not be, the mainline process will inevitably be killed, either at its own discretion, or forcibly. through a termination.

It might be violent, but it’s a process, it’s literally just lines of code that are being run. There’s nothing special or fancy behind them, it makes perfect sense to use terms like “killing a process” and “stop” and “terminate” for shutting them down, it’s immediately interpreted.

we know from raising children that it’s not good to shield them from potential allergens (the get allergies if you do that) and that it’s also good to expose them to generally more unsanitary environments (they build up a better immune system response ability) as well as encouraging them to do things they may or may not be capable of, teaching them how to deal with failure, and teaching them how to deal with the general pain and suffering of life. Why have we suddenly decided that “maybe we shouldnt use kill as a terminology to describe the act of ending a processes lifetime” that seems inconsequential to me in the grand scheme of things.

There might be data to support it, but i think the data to support that we simply don’t push younger girls towards the field of CS is significantly more evident. It has a historical basis, and it tracks with what we’re doing today, and the majors and degrees that they’re focusing on as well. While we’re here, we should probably also do something about younger men in the education space, and the world at large, as they don’t exactly have anything to aspire to or focus on.

just another moderately relevant example here to extend upon my point.

The one thing men had was control and responsibility over women when they didn’t have rights. Now that they have rights, we haven’t exactly changed anything in regards to how we raise boys, and we’re surprised when they start following the likes of tate and the manosphere crowd. Women haven’t previously had this opportunity to the same level they do now, so they’re still taking advantage of it because they can. But we’ve basically forgotten about an entire sect of society accidentally at this point.

I don’t think it’s intentional, i just think it’s a consequence similar to the decline of the tradesman over the years. Now those jobs have generally better prospects than getting into college, and they’ve become a very tempting opportunity.

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