cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/18302836
Iโm just picturing that robot from Star Trek (the one thinking about โthis sentence is falseโ) going โhuhโ and then blowing upโฆ
Jesus whatโs so hard about XX and XY?
One reason is because your chromosomes donโt control genital development, your hormones do. So if youโre born with XY chromosomes and your testosterone receptors donโt work then youโll develop female genitals and a generally female physiology (minus reproductive organs).
This is all separate from gender expression obviously, but things are hard because the world is complex. If you havenโt seen or experienced this complexity in your life, thatโs fine. But donโt diminish the complexity of otherโs experiences just because they donโt match your own.
I personally know someone like that. Sheโs currently raising a kid she gave birth to thanks to a donated egg and IVF. Chromosomes are useful for first order approximations, but biology is a glorious fucking mess that cares not for simple binaries.
I hope that the person youโre responding to will be able to form a new opinion after seeing these very measured and thoughtful responses. Iโm really pleased with how calmly the community is handling this particular comment.
Quite a lot actually! Chromosomes arenโt a good basis for biological sex.
Credit to @jarfil@beehaw.org for where I first saw this image (and obviously original credit to the original tweeter, @RebeccaRHelm)
So we have 4 independent variable
Chromosomal sex Genetic sex Hormonal sex Cells sex
Put it all into a matrix I would love to see the population distribution across this table.
Surly we can simply define a subset of the combinations. Cos the only other solution is to simply through out the concept of gender divisions but that just ainโt gonna work.
Put it all into a matrix I would love to see the population distribution across this table.
That would be an interesting thing to see.
However, biology is still learning about human sex. IIRC last year there was a cancer study that put in question a large number of biology studies in generalโฆ because many only focused on XY cell lines, to save time, reasoning that โif it has an X, and it has a Y, then all variables are coveredโ. Well, turns out that XX cells donโt use both chromosomes at the same time; instead, the genes from one of the Xs get inhibited via epigeneticsโฆ but not always all of them, or in the same way, and not always on the same X. That means some genes that didnโt activate in XY cells, sometimes would in XX cells, causing different mutations and reactions to cancer medication.
As a general rule, when it comes to any science, the version you learn in grade school is extremely simplified to the point of being almost entirely useless. To draw a parallel to physics, if you ask a physicist โhow many states of matter are there?โ, theyโd probably consider it a difficult and poorly defined question, the exact distinction between a distinct state and a subset/variant of a state is up for discussion, but any coherent model has at least 20 states. What youโre saying is the equivalent of โwhatโs so hard about solid, liquid and gas?โ
Nothing at all
This post is talking about people born XXY or X0 (just one x chromosome and nothing else)
or people born with a mixture of XY and XX chromosomes, such as discordant chimerism
Genetic sex is not binary, its a bellcurve. This is not a theory or an idea or a matter of debate among biologists.
The only people on earth who think its only XX and XY are those who are uneducated on the topic
but now you know better!!
Can somebody please enlighten me with some numbers on the commonality of said deviations. I always assumed they made up such a small percentage it wasnt relevent same as people with 4 or 6 fingers.
How big does a minority need to be before itโs โrelevantโ enough to be acknowledged and its membersโ rights respected? People with 4 or 6 fingers exist. People whose chromosomes donโt match their physiology exist. People whose gender identity doesnโt match their genitals exist. It doesnโt matter how many of them there are, because every single one of us is a unique minority of one.
But you asked for numbers, so Iโll give you some numbers.
According to this article, around 1.7% of people are intersex, meaning they have physiology that doesnโt fit neatly into the common conceptions of male or female. Thatโs close to the number of people with red hair, which is estimated to be 2% of the world population. I have never heard anyone suggest that redheads are too small a percentage to matter.
I think you were asking specifically about chromosomes, though. Thereโs a table in the linked article that breaks down intersex conditions by cause. The first entry is โNon-XX or non-XY (except Turnerโs or Klinefelterโs)โ. This refers to people with XY chromosomes whose bodies developed female characteristics (Swyer syndrome) and people with XX chromosomes whose bodies developed male characteristics (de la Chapelle syndrome). It does not include people with X, XXY, or XO chromosomes. (Those are the next two entries in the table.)
The estimated frequency for this condition is 0.0639 per 100 live births, equivalent to 0.0639% of population. That looks like a really low number, right? Surely not enough to be โrelevantโ! Exceptโฆ There are 8.1 billion people on this planet. 0.0639% of 8.1 billion is 5,175,900 people, which is roughly the current population of New Zealand.
Remember, that is only women with XY chromosomes and men with XX chromosomes. If we include all intersex people that number rises to 140 million, which is nearly the population of Russia.
