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This isn’t the valid argument you think it is. I don’t have any issues with you not understanding the predicament. After all almost nobody but a few weird people do, and we can’t do a damn thing about it, since it being, well, a predicament and not just a problem.

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You believe there are bootstrap limitations but tell me I need to prove your argument. You claimed aluminum manufacturing requires oil fired generators yet 30% of aluminum production is already with renewables.

It seems this is a matter of faith for you rather than a position you wish to defend.

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I did not claim that aluminium electrolysis cell was powered by an oil generator, if you want to single out one random, small part of the supply chain, which completely runs against the idea of looking at the entirety of processes and material sources for renewables, which of them depend on fossil energy, fossil organic and mineral sources, and which of them can be easily substituted, by, say, electrification or using a different material. It was just an algorithm for you to run at your end to produce a dataset to verify the claim, that current renewables are not autopoietic but fossil energy extenders, and subject to extraction limits at scales required. The bootstrap problem exists for hypothetical future renewable technology with ISRU self-rep. A weaker bootstrap issue is if you no longer have enough nonrenewable surplus for the transition, which is a real problem, but not the point I was making.

I don’t blame you. You need to have a holistic view of dozens of industrial processes, mineral extraction and enrichment, energy use, reserves, and so on in your head. Or be ready to collect the information, which takes a lot of time and effort.

There are reasons I only mention photovoltaics and wind. I could run through just the aluminium supply chain (without using hydro, because it’s saturated and hides the issue of output variability) to make a point, but I really encourage you to do it on your own. So that you can do it for everything else.

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but I really encourage you to do it on your own.

If you claim there is a problem where no problem has yet manifested, or in all of history, you need to show your work. If you questioned global warming, I would show you the volumes of work that prove it. I wouldn’t say, “Do it on your own.”

If necessary we can mine with pick axes just like 500 years ago to get the materials to generate energy to reduce manual labor. Rare earth materials aren’t needed. They are used for efficiency gains. Electric cars were made over 100 years ago without rare earth minerals or lithium.

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This is the place for discussing the potential collapse of modern civilization and the environment.


Collapse, in this context, refers to the significant loss of an established level or complexity towards a much simpler state. It can occur differently within many areas, orderly or chaotically, and be willing or unwilling. It does not necessarily imply human extinction or a singular, global event. Although, the longer the duration, the more it resembles a ‘decline’ instead of collapse.


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