feddit.org

7 points

3 months ago

I get that this is collapse, but that was a ridiculously unsourced opinion piece.

Claiming renewable energy like solar is a dead end because it’s currently manufactured using oil power is as silly as someone from 200 years ago claiming oil powered electric factories are impossible because they need to be built with steam powered factories.

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eleitl@lemm.eeOPM

0 points

3 months ago

It is an opinionated blog. But the core idea is reasonably easy to check, using a self replicating ISRU photovoltaics factory which uses its energetic output for everything as a model. Running an aluminium electrolysis cell is already difficult without buffering. It will already require mining and also transport, since offsite. Do make a list of raw materials and the entire supply chain for manufacturing. Write down the list of materials for those. At some point you might notice where the problems are.

Notice that green plants have no issues with ISRU self-rep, but we are quite far removed from that capability and we likely won’t get there because we’re already running out of fossil fuels and hence resource extractability.

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1 point

3 months ago

Do make a list of raw materials and the entire supply chain for manufacturing. Write down the list of materials for those. At some point you might notice where the problems are.

That’s what my proposed researcher from 200 years ago did to prove that oil powered factories are impossible.

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eleitl@lemm.eeOPM

2 points

3 months ago

This isn’t the valid argument you think it is. I don’t have any issues with you not understanding the predicament. After all almost nobody but a few weird people do, and we can’t do a damn thing about it, since it being, well, a predicament and not just a problem.

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1 point

3 months ago

You believe there are bootstrap limitations but tell me I need to prove your argument. You claimed aluminum manufacturing requires oil fired generators yet 30% of aluminum production is already with renewables.

It seems this is a matter of faith for you rather than a position you wish to defend.

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eleitl@lemm.eeOPM

1 point

3 months ago

I did not claim that aluminium electrolysis cell was powered by an oil generator, if you want to single out one random, small part of the supply chain, which completely runs against the idea of looking at the entirety of processes and material sources for renewables, which of them depend on fossil energy, fossil organic and mineral sources, and which of them can be easily substituted, by, say, electrification or using a different material. It was just an algorithm for you to run at your end to produce a dataset to verify the claim, that current renewables are not autopoietic but fossil energy extenders, and subject to extraction limits at scales required. The bootstrap problem exists for hypothetical future renewable technology with ISRU self-rep. A weaker bootstrap issue is if you no longer have enough nonrenewable surplus for the transition, which is a real problem, but not the point I was making.

I don’t blame you. You need to have a holistic view of dozens of industrial processes, mineral extraction and enrichment, energy use, reserves, and so on in your head. Or be ready to collect the information, which takes a lot of time and effort.

There are reasons I only mention photovoltaics and wind. I could run through just the aluminium supply chain (without using hydro, because it’s saturated and hides the issue of output variability) to make a point, but I really encourage you to do it on your own. So that you can do it for everything else.

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1 point

3 months ago

but I really encourage you to do it on your own.

If you claim there is a problem where no problem has yet manifested, or in all of history, you need to show your work. If you questioned global warming, I would show you the volumes of work that prove it. I wouldn’t say, “Do it on your own.”

If necessary we can mine with pick axes just like 500 years ago to get the materials to generate energy to reduce manual labor. Rare earth materials aren’t needed. They are used for efficiency gains. Electric cars were made over 100 years ago without rare earth minerals or lithium.

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